Is anyone else fed up with the way fish and game is ruining the deer program. If you go on there website there is a link in which you can see harvest totals from 1972 thru 2005. They keep saying that the high number in the harvest means that the deer heerd is thriving, what there not telling you is that although the numbers stay somewhat consistent the time allowed in the woods to harvest that same amount has increased to almost a little over 6 months of deer season. To those people that are going to tell me shut up and enjoy the liberal season, just remember those day's in the late 80's and early 90's when it wasn't uncommon to see 5 to 8 different bucks on an afternoon bowstand, now what are we seeing 1 maybee two if you do youre homework. The future is looking bleak we must open oure eyes to the future. In my opoinin in which this is something has to be done soon!!
outdoorsy
i'm with you..but people alot of people don't care and in the long run they are going to regret it..i always bring up the problem they are now having in pa..you can take a doe with the permit during the gun season ,when doe days where after the season .now every out of stater is atleast leaving with a doe..and residents are all getting does..when before people couldn't take off work just to get a doe , every out of stater is now getting a shot atleast at a doe..etc etc.now the herd is half of what it was and now they are all up in arms to change it back. it's just a mtter of time.i used to hunt the water gap years ago to spot light 200 -300 deer in the fields on they way out the back was nothing to see..but now forget about it..
Thats actually ten words Dave.[rofl]
The habitat destruction those huge herds did will take many years to regenerate.
Hunters want to see way too many deer. At what cost though? Its not healthy for the ecosystem. What about the forest and the diversity of plants and animals? This isnt just about us.
We have to stop worrying about yesteryear and the huge herds that ran around and worry about actual sound management. The biologists know what they are doing. Let them do their job.
The habitat destruction those huge herds did will take many years to regenerate.
Hunters want to see way too many deer. At what cost though? Its not healthy for the ecosystem. What about the forest and the diversity of plants and animals? This isnt just about us.
We have to stop worrying about yesteryear and the huge herds that ran around and worry about actual sound management. The biologists know what they are doing. Let them do their job.
I never said that. With the removal of EAB, the button buck harvest should decrease dramatically because hunters wont be looking for anything without antlers to fullfill eab. Cant say the shed buck take will go down, as bucks are normally still holding antlers when EAB is already over.
If you guys dont want to shoot deer, then dont, but someone has to.
If you guys dont want to shoot deer, then dont, but someone has to.
All i hear is [cry]
How many of you are all the meetings and fighting to change it? Ive been there and done that but nobody even considers the words of a 23 year old. Want bigger bucks? Take the guns out of Janurary.
I take management into my own hands and man has it worked. I lot my spot this year so it hasnt worked out for me but the quality of bucks ive seen was leaps and bounds over the deer of 5 years ago.
Let the state write the rules and regs, oppose what you disagree with and then do your part to the best of your ability to make your spot the best it can be.
How many of you are all the meetings and fighting to change it? Ive been there and done that but nobody even considers the words of a 23 year old. Want bigger bucks? Take the guns out of Janurary.
I take management into my own hands and man has it worked. I lot my spot this year so it hasnt worked out for me but the quality of bucks ive seen was leaps and bounds over the deer of 5 years ago.
Let the state write the rules and regs, oppose what you disagree with and then do your part to the best of your ability to make your spot the best it can be.
Matty I just feel that after 1997 when the state classifed deer as "vermon" everthing went down hill. Now it seems like there all about the money, don't get me wrong I don't mind paying to play but where does all that permit money go? With fishing license money goes to boat ramp maintenance etc. i am a highway bumb that works in the water gap, we just had a tractor trailer wreck two weeks ago 40 thousand pounds of apples of the rail there isn't even a hoof print there I check it every time I drive by wich is at least twice. WHERE ARE ALL THE DEER.
Wait until some genius starts selling permits to fish by zone[spy] At some point Fish & Game will have to either get revenue from other user groups that drain our $$ or cut the programs and eliminate jobs to meet there budget. Deer hunters cannot fund all the user groups as sales will continue to decline. The next couple years should be real interesting for license/permit costs.
Ya know its always the same old arguement. The "old school" hunters v.s. the "Y2K Hunters"
Dave2122 are you hunting in the Y2k era? Obviosuly yes.
So rather then try and separate the 2 groups and complain on the internet why not work together and come up with a solid management plan.
You seem plenty vocal on the site so why not put it to use where your experience and years hunting are taken into account. Telling me or matty or the nest 40 guys replying your opinion wont help. Telling it to someone who writes the code may.
Have yopu ever considered towns that are still using snipers to cull deer?
Now to me anyway if we let tooo many deer go whther we want to or not more towns will start doing this. AND THAT MAKES BOWHUNTERS AND GUNHUNTERS AND SMOKEPOLE GUYS LOOK LIKE A USELESS INADEQUATE MANAGEMENT TOOL
So i see it as we either follow their plan to a point and we all get to hunt or they bring in snipers, we lose access to lands thay bowhunters had been culling and all around hunters suffer.
Dave2122 are you hunting in the Y2k era? Obviosuly yes.
So rather then try and separate the 2 groups and complain on the internet why not work together and come up with a solid management plan.
You seem plenty vocal on the site so why not put it to use where your experience and years hunting are taken into account. Telling me or matty or the nest 40 guys replying your opinion wont help. Telling it to someone who writes the code may.
Have yopu ever considered towns that are still using snipers to cull deer?
Now to me anyway if we let tooo many deer go whther we want to or not more towns will start doing this. AND THAT MAKES BOWHUNTERS AND GUNHUNTERS AND SMOKEPOLE GUYS LOOK LIKE A USELESS INADEQUATE MANAGEMENT TOOL
So i see it as we either follow their plan to a point and we all get to hunt or they bring in snipers, we lose access to lands thay bowhunters had been culling and all around hunters suffer.
I'm not exactly sure whether the state has the right "formula" in managing deer, but to ease some of the frustration a bit I simply would like to point out that the goals of F & G and the goals of hunters aren't always the same.
F & G is not a Division with a mission to support hunting or hunters - its mission is to manage wildlife/game populations for sound ecosystems. Hunting and hunters are a tool that F & G uses to help them with their mission.
My point is that we hunters may feel that from a "hunting perspective" F & G is doing us wrong, but F & G is looking at hunting to accomplish their "wildlife/game management" goals - which may not parallel the desires of hunters.
Remember, hunting is considered a privilege - not a "right" (Corzine, Jackson, Bradley, NJ Supreme cout are proving this point.) It is not guaranteed by our U.S. or State constitutions. Fees are paid for permits, licenses, etc...
I'm not saying that F & G doesn't appreciate hunters, or that they don't enjoy hunting. But the relationship between F & G and hunters is one of convenience - they need us to hunt to help them with their mission to manage wildlife/game populations and maintain a sound ecosystem - and we enjoy helping them by hunting and pay a price (fees, taxes, etc.) to do so.
Ant
F & G is not a Division with a mission to support hunting or hunters - its mission is to manage wildlife/game populations for sound ecosystems. Hunting and hunters are a tool that F & G uses to help them with their mission.
My point is that we hunters may feel that from a "hunting perspective" F & G is doing us wrong, but F & G is looking at hunting to accomplish their "wildlife/game management" goals - which may not parallel the desires of hunters.
Remember, hunting is considered a privilege - not a "right" (Corzine, Jackson, Bradley, NJ Supreme cout are proving this point.) It is not guaranteed by our U.S. or State constitutions. Fees are paid for permits, licenses, etc...
I'm not saying that F & G doesn't appreciate hunters, or that they don't enjoy hunting. But the relationship between F & G and hunters is one of convenience - they need us to hunt to help them with their mission to manage wildlife/game populations and maintain a sound ecosystem - and we enjoy helping them by hunting and pay a price (fees, taxes, etc.) to do so.
Ant
I understand what you are saying see a lower about a deer per day and how it is not the same. You can blame Fish and Wildlife all you want. However, they are fish and wildlife, not hunting and fishing. They manage the fish and wildife for wildlife, not hunters and anglers. We are a tool in their management plan.
Cant argue with that Ant, hunters always want more game; hell I am one of them. I love goin to the field and seeing a butt load of deer, turkey or what ever. But the F&W have their goals and we are just a tool.
I agree with lives in trees, sometimes you gota take thing into your own hands. Just because you can hunt from Sept - Feb doesnt mean you have to and just because you can shoot an unlimited amount of Doe in some zones doesnt mean you have to....Take what you NEED and call it a day.
Just my two cents
I agree with lives in trees, sometimes you gota take thing into your own hands. Just because you can hunt from Sept - Feb doesnt mean you have to and just because you can shoot an unlimited amount of Doe in some zones doesnt mean you have to....Take what you NEED and call it a day.
Just my two cents
Well said mpemt24 and dbowers.[up]
We may not always agree with F & G - and F & G may not always be using the best approach. It's important that we understand our relationship with F & G not only to minimize our frustration with some of their decisions - but because the "more informed" hunter has a better chance of advancing his or her agenda when they understand the dynamics involved.
Ant
We may not always agree with F & G - and F & G may not always be using the best approach. It's important that we understand our relationship with F & G not only to minimize our frustration with some of their decisions - but because the "more informed" hunter has a better chance of advancing his or her agenda when they understand the dynamics involved.
Ant
I guess they know what there doing for 28.00 extra you can change there mind.
Typical NJ attitude, get em all before someone else does.
G
Why is it that back in the day when we saw so many deer I would see just as many big bucks as I do today? They say the herd is be managed for numerous reasons one being better bucks, well from my understanding they have been doing this for 10 years, and I haven't seen a big difference, I would agree there is a slight improvement on the quality of bucks. Why is it when a state tries to improve the size bucks it doesn't take them 10 or more years? I know, they don't have deer hunting all the way into mid Febuary and they don't have the EAB buck bs, which should be out of here for the 2007 season. What this state needs is some of the past and the present ideas rolled into one
BuffaloStink,
Thats hardly my attitude at all, and anyone that hunts with me knows that. I merely meant that someone has to control the doe population. Knowing Dave2122, hes my uncle, I know he doesnt like shooting does and rarely ever does. So if he wants to just shoot bucks, someone will have to shoot the does I guess. Right? Makes sense to me.
As far as biologists being persuaded to change their minds for the price of a permit, thats simply not true either. The biologists care about the health of the herd and the habitat. Simple as that. They merely make suggestions based on science.
You're confusing the biologists with the F&W council. The council uses the ideas given to them by the biologists to try and set regulations that will earn the division money. The division unfortunately is in a state of financial distress.
Talk to a biologist working on the deer program in NJ, you will find they are friendly, knowledgeable people with a healthy deer being their foremost concern.
PS, APMauroSr put it perfectly. The deer herd isnt managed FOR us, its managed BY us!
---Matt
*The way people jump down each other's throats here is turning me off from this website. People need to calm down, think about what they are about to type and discuss things with a level head. I refrain from giving my point of view on a lot of subjects because of this. Perhaps I should refrain more often.
Thats hardly my attitude at all, and anyone that hunts with me knows that. I merely meant that someone has to control the doe population. Knowing Dave2122, hes my uncle, I know he doesnt like shooting does and rarely ever does. So if he wants to just shoot bucks, someone will have to shoot the does I guess. Right? Makes sense to me.
As far as biologists being persuaded to change their minds for the price of a permit, thats simply not true either. The biologists care about the health of the herd and the habitat. Simple as that. They merely make suggestions based on science.
You're confusing the biologists with the F&W council. The council uses the ideas given to them by the biologists to try and set regulations that will earn the division money. The division unfortunately is in a state of financial distress.
Talk to a biologist working on the deer program in NJ, you will find they are friendly, knowledgeable people with a healthy deer being their foremost concern.
PS, APMauroSr put it perfectly. The deer herd isnt managed FOR us, its managed BY us!
---Matt
*The way people jump down each other's throats here is turning me off from this website. People need to calm down, think about what they are about to type and discuss things with a level head. I refrain from giving my point of view on a lot of subjects because of this. Perhaps I should refrain more often.
Bucks compete with does for food during the winter. Bucks are at a disadvantage because they don't eat much during the rut. If there are too many does, bucks will starve. To add insult to this injury, if there are many more does than bucks, bucks are in rut mode longer and are in even worse shape for winter. Having a large herd will just mean many does, eating everything in the ecosystem, and having many fawns, which will not survive; much less become 10 pointers.
A whacked out sex ratio also leads to hunters seeing even fewer bucks. Since there are so many does, bucks do not have to travel to find them or venture out during the day much.
If you want to see more bucks, increase habitat and reduce the number of does in relation to the number of bucks. Seems to me that by reducing the number of bucks that can be taken, while leaving in the liberal doe bag limits, New Jersey might be heading for a better buck to doe ratio. This will lead to more big bucks, more buck movement, and a healthier ecosystem that will be able to support more deer.
A whacked out sex ratio also leads to hunters seeing even fewer bucks. Since there are so many does, bucks do not have to travel to find them or venture out during the day much.
If you want to see more bucks, increase habitat and reduce the number of does in relation to the number of bucks. Seems to me that by reducing the number of bucks that can be taken, while leaving in the liberal doe bag limits, New Jersey might be heading for a better buck to doe ratio. This will lead to more big bucks, more buck movement, and a healthier ecosystem that will be able to support more deer.
Let the Biologist manage the herd & the "I want the 80's back" guys manage themselves. If your not seeing deer your in the wrong spot.
What a foolish thread title. The div. has to manage the herd in a state that is loseing habitat everyday. more deer live in places that the politions that you voted for say we can't hunt. Who would you deal with this problem? They are stuck between a Gov. that doesnt give a crap about them or hunting. Give them a break.
Yup thats it exactly sportsmen are but ONE of the "Stake Holders" considerd in a deer management plan, right along with those who may want to or have to drive at night, own woodland, Farm, view wildlife, or own a landscaped home.
Woodland owners and farmers also pay for deer just like sportsmen do but most sportsmen don't see that.
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