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NJ_Bowhntr

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
There has been a lot of attention focused on the Divisions crossbow survey and how it is being used to support the current crossbow proposal. Let’s see how the survey really addresses the current crossbow proposal, which is to allow crossbows in all bow seasons, for all hunters. The numbers I am using are directly from the survey, but for some reason, they have not been presented to us in this fashion before. I will let those who read this decide why that is for themselves.

Opinions on why they omitted this information aside, these numbers are the hard facts, right from the Divisions own survey, as it relates to the current proposal, and cannot be disputed. You can try to deflect from them, try to spin them, you can try to dilute them with, or bury them under, other numbers that are not directly related to the proposal, and you can try to ignore them, and I would suggest that the F&G Council, the Division and the crossbow advocates have been very good at all of these tactics. However, you cannot refute them, as they are directly from the survey. Those of you who wanted facts, here are some to chew on.

The current crossbow proposal is for all bow seasons for all ages. The Division and F&G Council are using the conclusions of this survey to support that proposal. So, what did the survey tell us about the feelings of the respondents of this proposal?

Any survey, especially a Government poll or document, particularly when a desire has already been expressed (remember, they already tried to get crossbows in once, before the survey, so we know what their objective is), should never be taken at face value, and a close examination needs to take place.

The Division tells us 2030 surveys were mailed, and 1047 hunters responded.

The survey states that support for crossbows (either strong or moderate) was 73 percent. The actual number of those who responded in either strong or moderate support were: strong=553, moderate=202, for a total of 755. 755 is actually 72.1 percent of 1047, close enough. However, this support figure includes various forms, including some respondents who chose only certain seasons, and various age restrictions. Any and all support indicated is lumped in this number, it is not accurate to say this support is unrestricted, for all bow seasons.

Next, as related to the proposal, the survey states that of those who supported crossbows (755 people), 54 percent supported crossbows in all bow seasons. 54 percent of 755 = 407 people. Here is the part where they got tricky.

That 54 percent is not an accurate portrayal of support of the respondents because is not the percentage OF THOSE SURVEYED, only of those who supported crossbows. To get the true percentage of those surveyed who actually supported crossbows in all bow seasons, we find that 407 = 38.8 percent of the 1047 respondents, or of those surveyed.

A common tactic when attempting to manipulate statistics is to narrow down your sample size as small as possible, while maintaining your desired result, to falsely enlarge the amount of support for your target outcome. They did that over and over again in their presentation of the data in this survey, but we will only examine the numbers as they relate to the current proposal, since that proposal is what we have to deal with. It would take pages and pages to parse the entire survey.

So, 38.8 percent supported crossbows in all bow season, which leaves us with 61.2 percent who DID NOT SUPPORT crossbows in all bow seasons. And remember, this “all bow season” support number includes all support, including the various age restriction choices, and is NOT FOR ALL AGES, all bow seasons.

Next, we will move on to the age groups, and see what the survey tells us about the current proposal.

The Survey tells us that of the respondents, 156 people supported crossbows for all ages. 156 = 15 percent of those surveyed. That would mean 85 PERCENT DID NOT SUPPORT crossbows for all ages. Remember, that is the proposal…all ages, all bow seasons.

The survey also tells us that 205 people supported crossbows for ages 17 and up. 205=19.5 percent of those surveyed. That means 80.5 percent DID NOT SUPPORT the age restriction closest to all ages, which is the proposal.

To give the Division some leeway, we can add the two together. 205 + 156 = 361 people, or 34.5 percent of the respondents who support something close to the proposal. However, that means we still have 65.5 percent who DID NOT SUPPORT even the closest thing to the proposal.

This is what the survey tells us about the feelings of those who were surveyed as it pertains to the current proposal. The other numbers tell us some nice information, but they do not pertain to the proposal, and only serve as a distraction, intentional or otherwise, from what the real results are, as they relate to the current proposal from the F&G Council.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t see overwhelming, or even mitigating support for the current proposal. If this document is used to support the game code changes, it will come under much greater scrutiny than this.

It’s no surprise I’m not happy with the Council on this issue. However, now I am even more angered. They have opened the door for one of the biggest arguments of the animal rights activists to gain a foothold in their plea to restructure the Council. Those groups opposed to us outdoorsmen and women always claim the Division, and Fish and Game Council, manipulate numbers and statistics to further their own agenda and make money from wildlife. This looks horribly just like that.

Hopefully, they will carefully examine what they have done here, and reconsider going forward with the current proposal because it is clear that their own survey does not support it. It may support something else, but it does not support what they have proposed. This could be used by those who wish to see hunting banned as powerful evidence against us.
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
stop stressing and enjoy life with all we have
I enjoy life just fine, and that's why I hardly come here any longer...too much stuff to do in real life to be preoccupied with the cyber world. From all the things you listed to be worried about in your post, it seems you may be more stressed than I am. :D
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
U can not use nonreply surveys
Like I said, you can try to spin, or...

I thought that the above Poster (Deputy Dir. Of F&G ? )already responded to the Critism of their Survey ?
Or try to deflect.

Fact is, the same person who posted the words you guys like to keep quoting was also telling people at his presentations that crossbows have the same harvest rates as compounds, and vertical bow hunters still outnumber crossbow hunters in Ohio, yet we see this...
For the 2006-2007 Ohio bow season, crossbow hunters took 38,489 deer compared to 29,423 deer taken by vertical bow hunters
So not everything he tells us seems to be accurate.

At least I acknowledged I was wrong and apologized. That is something neither you, nor your cronies, nor this poster you keep quoting have done in the many times you have collectively been proven wrong. What does that say about credibility?
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
you can't asign what ever results, or answers, you want to surveys not turned in
Rdf, the numbers are based on the 1047 that were returned, not the total number of 2030 sent out. So, these numbers are based only on those responses received; to use your words, surveys that were turned in. Take another look...
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
we KNOW that 78% support All Bow Seasons......not even close to the 38.8 "fictitious number in the above quotes"
78 percent of who??? That is the question, and the answer is NOT, 78 percent of those surveyed. Your 78 percent number is the ficticous number.

Like I said, all you can do is try to spin it.

That is 78 percent ONLY of those who supported crossbows in some fashion, and it does not pertain to support for all ages.

You, and they, have immediately thrown out all those who responded that did not "support" crossbows in some fashion, to make the sample size smaller, and the appearance of thier support larger.
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
Also EVERY claim made is easy to find out IF true or not with these awesome graphs
Those graphs are exactly where my numbers come from, I just presented them honestly, which hasn't been done before.

Here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about...

Let's say we surveryed 1000 people.
100 say they "support" bar-b-que sauce.
Of those 100, 75 people say they support bar-b-que sauce on apple pie.

The conclusion the Division, and those of you who keep spouting their numbers want us to believe, is that 75 percent of the people support bar-b-que sauce on apple pie.

That is not accurate, but it is exactly what they have done in this survey.

Those are the facts, I'll let you internet GODS try to spin around them, [wallmad] I'm going to work.
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
WRONG.........like I said No spin needed, it's all on page 11 see the 78% surveyed Did in Fact say for ALL bow seasons OR all seasons
Jim, I know you can read, and I know you are thorough, so it seems the only thing left to assume is that you are intentionally trying to mislead everyone here. I would say you just made a mistake, but you saw this page, and I'm sure you knew the truth, you just decided not to tell the truth.

This is one of the many reasons why it impossible to have an intelligent or honest debate with you...you refuse to accept, or even acknowledge, truth or facts that you don't like.

You just post whatever you have to post to support your point, even when you know it's false, and you hope no one checks to see if you were lying. This happens, over, and over, and over with you.

Then, when confronted with the truth, you either try to spin out of it, continue to deny the truth staring you in the face, or dismiss it as not important anyway.

I know you saw this because you got the page number right, but that is the only thing you got right from the whole post. Here is page 11, as you suggested we look at.

Image


See that question at the top, the one the chart is representative of? That questions says, of those who supported crossbows. It does not reflect the entire number of respondents to the survey, only those who supported crossbows in ANY manner.

Further proof is at the top of the chart where they actually list the number of people who responded to the question, n=747. Remember, there were 1047 respondents to the survey. This 78 percent is 78 percent of those ONLY who supported crossbows in some form or another, or that 747 number, not the 1047 people who responded to the survey.

They effectively whittled the sample group down by almost 30 percent, so that they could make the approval number look bigger.

This is typical of the "facts" used by you and others all to often in this debate, and it's why everything you post needs to be checked and double checked, maybe even triple checked for accuracy before anyone should put any faith in it.
 
Discussion starter · #54 ·
402 All Bow seasons

TRY to get a remaining 39% all day long
Okay, 402 is approximately 38.5 percent of those surveyed, which according the survey was 1047 people. See how easy that was. ;) Seeing the truth like that must have really hit a nerve with you aceoky. You have really flown into a frenzy trying to bury, spin or deflect from it. [hihi] :D

Plz explain
Okay, here it is once again. I understand why you missed it, aceoky tried to bury the truth under numerous posts of gibberish, that is one of his tactics to obscure the truth.

1047 people responded to the survey

Of those 1047 who responded to the survey, 73 percent (747 people) said they support crossbow in some form or another in question 3. Example, if a person responded that they "supported" crossbows only for hunters 65 years or older, and only in gun season, they were counted as supporting crossbows, and in that 73 percent.

Of those 747 people who supported crossbows, 54 percent (402 people) said all bow seasons. The deceiving part, that aceoky keeps denying, is that what they are calling 54 percent support, is really only 38 percent of total respondents to the survey. Another 24 percent (176 people) said all seasons (about 16 percent of all those surveyed).

Even when confronted with the evidence right in front of him, he continues to lie about it. Go figure, same thing we all have come to expect from him.
 
Discussion starter · #55 ·
There has been a lot of attention focused on the Divisions crossbow survey and how it is being used to support the current crossbow proposal. Let’s see how the survey really addresses the current crossbow proposal, which is to allow crossbows in all bow seasons, for all hunters. The numbers I am using are directly from the survey, but for some reason, they have not been presented to us in this fashion before. I will let those who read this decide why that is for themselves.

Opinions on why they omitted this information aside, these numbers are the hard facts, right from the Divisions own survey, as it relates to the current proposal, and cannot be disputed. You can try to deflect from them(aceoky is trying:D), try to spin them(and trying:D), you can try to dilute them with, or bury them under, other numbers that are not directly related to the proposal(and trying:D), and you can try to ignore them(and trying, just look at all his posts thrown up in such a desperate manner :D), and I would suggest that the F&G Council, the Division and the crossbow advocates have been very good at all of these tactics. However, you cannot refute them, as they are directly from the survey. Those of you who wanted facts, here are some to chew on.

The current crossbow proposal is for all bow seasons for all ages. The Division and F&G Council are using the conclusions of this survey to support that proposal. So, what did the survey tell us about the feelings of the respondents of this proposal?

Any survey, especially a Government poll or document, particularly when a desire has already been expressed (remember, they already tried to get crossbows in once, before the survey, so we know what their objective is), should never be taken at face value, and a close examination needs to take place.

The Division tells us 2030 surveys were mailed, and 1047 hunters responded.

The survey states that support for crossbows (either strong or moderate) was 73 percent. The actual number of those who responded in either strong or moderate support were: strong=553, moderate=202, for a total of 755. 755 is actually 72.1 percent of 1047, close enough. However, this support figure includes various forms, including some respondents who chose only certain seasons, and various age restrictions. Any and all support indicated is lumped in this number, it is not accurate to say this support is unrestricted, for all bow seasons.

Next, as related to the proposal, the survey states that of those who supported crossbows (755 people), 54 percent supported crossbows in all bow seasons. 54 percent of 755 = 407 people. Here is the part where they got tricky.

That 54 percent is not an accurate portrayal of support of the respondents because is not the percentage OF THOSE SURVEYED, only of those who supported crossbows. To get the true percentage of those surveyed who actually supported crossbows in all bow seasons, we find that 407 = 38.8 percent of the 1047 respondents, or of those surveyed.

A common tactic when attempting to manipulate statistics is to narrow down your sample size as small as possible, while maintaining your desired result, to falsely enlarge the amount of support for your target outcome. They did that over and over again in their presentation of the data in this survey, but we will only examine the numbers as they relate to the current proposal, since that proposal is what we have to deal with. It would take pages and pages to parse the entire survey.

So, 38.8 percent supported crossbows in all bow season, which leaves us with 61.2 percent who DID NOT SUPPORT crossbows in all bow seasons. And remember, this “all bow season” support number includes all support, including the various age restriction choices, and is NOT FOR ALL AGES, all bow seasons.

Next, we will move on to the age groups, and see what the survey tells us about the current proposal.

The Survey tells us that of the respondents, 156 people supported crossbows for all ages. 156 = 15 percent of those surveyed. That would mean 85 PERCENT DID NOT SUPPORT crossbows for all ages. Remember, that is the proposal…all ages, all bow seasons.

The survey also tells us that 205 people supported crossbows for ages 17 and up. 205=19.5 percent of those surveyed. That means 80.5 percent DID NOT SUPPORT the age restriction closest to all ages, which is the proposal.

To give the Division some leeway, we can add the two together. 205 + 156 = 361 people, or 34.5 percent of the respondents who support something close to the proposal. However, that means we still have 65.5 percent who DID NOT SUPPORT even the closest thing to the proposal.

This is what the survey tells us about the feelings of those who were surveyed as it pertains to the current proposal. The other numbers tell us some nice information, but they do not pertain to the proposal, and only serve as a distraction, intentional or otherwise, from what the real results are, as they relate to the current proposal from the F&G Council.
 
Discussion starter · #58 ·
and you're over looking (intentionally) the OTHER 176 WHO IN FACT stated ALL SEASONS (is "bow season NOT a season now Doug?)
I didn't overlook them, this is right from my post, you lied again. [rofl][rofl]
Of those 747 people who supported crossbows, 54 percent (402 people) said all bow seasons. The deceiving part, that aceoky keeps denying, is that what they are calling 54 percent support, is really only 38 percent of total respondents to the survey. Another 24 percent (176 people) said all seasons (about 16 percent of all those surveyed).
WHERE is YOUR 38.9%???
Exactly aceoky, it isn't in there, but it is the TRUE number of those surveyed. That is my point, they have played with the numbers in the survey. Thanks for agreeing with me. Check, and MATE.:D :D :D

My work here is done. [hihi][hihi] :D
 
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