New Jersey Hunters banner
21 - 31 of 31 Posts
Discussion starter · #21 ·
I hit the "void" last Monday, well not really, I was in a ground blind with a crossbow, had a doe about 10-15 yards away, I did aim lower to compensate for the short distance but not enough and hit high, the hit looked high but I though under the spine, when I found the bolt, the was just a blood smear and it was covered in fat, that's when I knew I hit above the spine. While I know that deer will live it still stinks to know I made a bad shot.
Those hits actually heal up pretty well if they are a clean pass through. I have seen several deer hit there that were later harvested and they were fine.
 
As others have said there clearly IS A VOID. It's just not where some intially thought . It's a non fatal shot that can and will bleed with blood that sometimes can fool you.
 
If you puncture the chest cavity with a pass through it will be lethal. I've hit deer high but under the spine with an arrow and have always recovered them. However, the blood trail can be less than ideal with a high hit.

Incidentally, I've killed deer that have had hits high in the spine with the broadhead still embedded but healed over.

I also hit a doe high in the back years ago, that dropped in place (the only one I've ever had that happen to while bowhunting) thrash around for several seconds, then get up and run off. Even after a diligent search I couldn't recover her. I believe she more than likely survived.
 
Years ago while helping my brother try to find a buck he hit the night before we came across another buck. The deer was in the middle of the worst tangle of world famous Hunterdon County Rose Flora. After snipping and cutting our way to the sounds of thrashing we saw a very nice rack 8 point obviously on his death bed. He was missing big patches of hair and looked as if he was interned at Auschwitz. You could see he was once a giant bodied specimen. A sad sight for sure. The deer lay with his head up looking at us after another short struggle to escape as we got to him. There was only one thing to do for it as it certainly suffered enough and for who knows how long. I played the hypnotist and drew the hissing bucks attention as my brother got behind it grabbed the antlers and made quick work with his knife to the buck's throat. It was a bit scary to say the least. I learned that day of how much these animals can take, but most importantly of their instinct to survive. This back was shot through the top of his back just behind the shoulders. We come to realize later that the buck most likely suffered from infection since the arrow didn't hit any vitals to put it away immediately.

It there a void? I don't know, but it has been debated for a long time. There are some answers that make sense but others are just pure speculation. I do know that the guy who pulled the string on this buck wished there was no such thing. We never did find the buck we were looking for.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
To say there is no void is misleading. There are places where an arrow can pass thru without contacting major organs or arteries.
Sure, if you hit ABOVE the spine or in the back leg for that matter. But there is no void within the rib cage, which is where this mystical "void" is believed to be.
 
The topic of a "Void" seems to pop up every year & on every bowhunting forum. The following is the best explanation I've seen to dispel the myth of a "void". It was submitted by Dr. Tom Gross, a pulmonologist (lung Dr.) & avid archer from Iowa.

"OK. Enough. I normally am strictly a lurker, but I can't take anymore. I am a Pulmonologist (Lung Dr) and avid archer. As a disclaimer, I am not privy to what others have seen or witnessed. I am only trained in normal mammalian anatomy. As such, I offer the following:

1) The lungs are not "glued" to the chest wall. That said, they are mechanically linked by fluid forces between the chest wall pleural surface and the lung pleural surface. The example I use for my students is to take a zip lock bag, put in a very small amount of fluid to "wet" the surfaces and close the bad squeezing out all the air. Then try to separate one bag surface from the other. Can't be done without ripping the bag or putting air into the system. During normal respiration, the chest wall expands a small amount and the lung expand to remain constantly in contact no matter how fast or sharply you breath in. The diaphragm moves up and down a good deal as well, but again, the lungs are in continual contact with the diaphragm. The lungs never separate from chest wall - pleural space is a "potential space" until disease causes fluid to accumulate (effusion), bleeding (hemothorax), or chest wall puncture or lung rupture (pneumothorax). There is no anatomic pr physiologic void.

2) the lungs of all large mammals have recesses that reach above the horizontal lowermost reach of the spinal column. I will gladly attach computer tomographic images (CT scan) from man, pig, sheep to demonstrate that you can not design a path that goes under the spine that will not puncture at least one lung (assuming we are talking about the chest cavity). Someone needs to tell me how to do this with a Mac - or I can email them to someone to do it for us.
3) Not all pneumothoraces are lethal. Even bilateral lung puncture can be survived if there is not a large "sucking chest wound" and/or the lung slices quickly seal up with blood clot. Most of these animals will die, but a few can travel a long way even with "double lung" hits if only the tops of the lungs are sliced.

So, there is no void except in the beliefs of some; you can hit an animal below the spine and not recover it.

One common misconception is that a pneumothorax (collapsed lung) is an all or nothing phenomena. This is not true. Now certainly with a big open chest wound, most certainly the lung will collapse completely, but this still happens on a breath by breath basis (breath in creates negative pressure drawing air through open wound) and can take many minutes (= many yards if running). Also, if chest wound seals up (narrow slit, fat, clot, etc), lung may only leak a little air during expiration (positive pressure in lung to get breath out) and only partially collapse. Humans and deer have two separate pleural cavities (one for each lung), so dropping one lung leaves the other relatively unscathed. The bison has a single pleural space and was relatively "easy" to kill with even a one lung shot. That said, I have heard that an arrow to the chest of a bison may still take large fractions of any hour to put it down.

In addition, remember your fluid dynamics and air flow resistance factors. A deer trachea (windpipe) provides a much bigger cross sectional area than most any broad head wound (area of circle vs intersecting slits). Thus, air will still follow path of least resistance and animal will be able to inspire until pressure in pleural space impedes air entry through normal channels. This scenario also presumes a "sucking" chest wound whereby entrained air through wound on inspiration does not escape on expiration (think ball valve). Very deadly. However, a true open pneumothorax (air in and out wound during respiratory cycle) can be tolerated for a very long time (ask many of our young men getting shrapnel wounds overseas or any trauma center doc) "

The entire discussion can be found at: http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=316310&forum=4#1834833
 
So in short there is no "air" or "fluid" void as often imagined. BUT... it is possable for an arrows trajectory high in the lungs to be less than lethal.

I would accept that. I've shot hundreds of deer and it never happened to me but I dont think its impossable. I have seen some lung hits that when the path is through the thicker muscled upper back the deer can travel farther than if shot through the "thin" center ribs.

Call it what you will I still think it is unlikely but not impossable.
 
21 - 31 of 31 Posts