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The future of APR's in NJ?

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#21 ·
In other words, the number of older age class bucks in the herd actually increased, bucking (pun intended) the trend of the herd reduction. That is an APR success.
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I don't know if that is necessarily the case NJB. Has the number in that age class actually increased, or is it simply that the "harvest" of that age class deer increased due to the APR's? If that is the case, which I believe it may very well be, then in the short term it may "appear" to be a success, but a year or two down the road that age class will then be diminished as a result of the APR's.
I agree with your last post however, not an ideal situation, and very difficult in NJ especially.
 
#22 ·
Screw APR's send letters saying to LIMIT THE BUCK HARVEST, and only allow unlimited doe harvest in VERY small areas where its still needed.
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Dan Good plan and in more honest forward looking / thinking states this method works fine but here in this state it seems to many that APR's are at the least SOMETHING.
 
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Discussion starter · #23 ·
Has the number in that age class actually increased, or is it simply that the "harvest" of that age class deer increased due to the APR's
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If the results posted were seen in just the first year or two of the program, I would think your idea here would be more likely...that just the harvest of those age classes got a bump due to hunters being forced to kill them. However, these numbers are after 9 or 10 years, not one or two, and are more likely the result of years of more 1.5 yr olds being spared to pass to older age classes.

In more basic terms, if you have 10 deer that are 1.5 yrs old, and you kill 8 of them every year, you have fewer, older deer down the road. However if you have 10 1.5 yr olds, and you only kill 4 of them every year, you have more older deer, down the road.

I agree that the results of APR's are limited with the amount of buck tags, and length of seasons in NJ, but in the absence of reducing buck tags or season lengths, APR's are the only thing you have getting any results, even if they are not as great as one would like.

Was that the real issue or was it crooked "Science" being perpitrated by the chair of the F+G council?
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That is a good point...who in their right mind would think that after just one or two season of sacrifice, without the rewards of that sacrifice kicking in yet, you would get a fair or accurate measure of the success or accpetance, of the program.

Sounds like someone was trying to rig a survey to me, but maybe that's just me.
 
#24 ·
So, I would argue, how are you then increasing the age structure of your antlered deer when you have now targeted any age class deer with more than 3 pts per antler? You will inevitably cause the harvest of the majority of the genetically superior 1 1/2, 2 1/2, 3 1/2...yr old bucks solely because they have 3 or more pts per side, and because they will be the (relatively) easier bucks to kill given their younger age. Whereas the inferior antlered deer (spikes, 3 pts and forkhorns) of the same age class, and older, would be off limits.
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Which ends up leading to this
On average, each year we save 712 yearling bucks from harvest, and gain 30 2.5 year old bucks
and 84 3.5+ year old bucks. In other words, we harvest 712 less yearling bucks but gain only
114 older age class bucks as a result of APR.
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So more older deer are harvested instead of the first little scrapper. Maybe that's not such a good thing all the time
 
#26 ·
Looking at the data you posted the state put a very negative spin on APR to date in the southern zones. But that brings up a question, who aged the bucks to determine age class? I've hunted in NJ for 20+ years and only once saw a check station staffed by F&G to collect data. neither of the 2 guys on site from the state knew anything about ageing deer and were guessing the age without even looking at tooth ware. I was shocked that they were collecting data like that. I've been a wildlife biologist with the federal goverment for a while now and we take data collection pretty serious. I gave them a quick lesson on ageing by tooth ware and left. That particular occurance was not in a APR zone. I've been hunting in 27, 35, and 63 the last 10 years and have never seen anyone collecting data at any of the check stations around me. In all honesty I would bet they have no clue what age class most of those deer were.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
Looking at the data you posted the state put a very negative spin on APR to date in the southern zones.
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It was even worse in person at the Forums they held across those zones. It was truly disturbing to witness the lack of objectivity, and tremendous misinformation sitting there listening to them spin thier own data to make everyone fear antler restrictions.
 
#30 ·
Antler restrictions are backwards. Why would you let the worst bucks do the breeding????? In the long run you end up with nothing but junk. I'm for restricting the buck harvest by reducing the number of tags.
 
#32 ·
Yes, it is your choice. The problem is some guys have no self control when a deer shows up. Not just bucks, but any deer. Easy answer is that it was their choice. If you cut the tags down to an acceptable compromise that person might think twice. (if capable)
 
#33 ·
If you cut the tags down to an acceptable compromise that person might think twice.
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That's the answer, not APRs.

Many states have tried ARs in the past and stopped once they realized what was happening. The number of illegally killed bucks was 40-100% that of the legal harvest each year.

That is, for every 100 bucks legally killed there were another 40–100 bucks killed illegally. ARs do not protect the younger bucks; they’re still being killed, just illegally.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
The number of illegally killed bucks was 40-100% that of the legal harvest each year.

That is, for every 100 bucks legally killed there were another 40–100 bucks killed illegally.
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I'm sure that happens some, however I'd like to know what studies produced your 40% to 100% numbers, never heard of anything that high. And while I agree that reducing buck tags is better, I'm also sure that the same people who cheat the APR's, will also cheat the one buck rule, especially with the new call-in system. So if they are going to kill an illegal buck, and not report it, they are also not above killing a buck and saving that one buck tag "for the next one". Does that mean we should not change the regs to one buck?

ARs do not protect the younger bucks; they’re still being killed, just illegally.
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I don't think that is an accurate statement either. The fact is APR's do protect some of the younger bucks, even though some of them are killed legally (3 points or more as a yearling) and a few are killed illegally. I've done alot of walking this year on several WMA's since November, dozens of hours since early February alone. I have found no dead bucks that would have been illegal under APR's. If there were as many out there as your statement leads us to believe, I would have found some.

Rusty, in a normal situation, you and I would agree on just about everything, however, NJ is not normal because there is no way they are ever going to consider reducing buck tags and it's just about as far fetched to think they will reduce the length of the seasons. The long season with multiple tags puts tremendous pressure on our deer and APR's are the only thing being done to reduce that pressure, and now they are trying to lift that regulation as well.

I personally have not seen any improvement where I hunt but that is because there are far fewer deer overall and I'm not seeing much of anything. However, after reading thier study data, objectively and reading past the negative spin they put on thier own data, it does show that APR's have likely played a role in the number of 2.5 yr old increasing and the number of 3.5 yr old almost doubling, while the rest of the deer herd was decreased by approximately 35 percent. No matter how they try to spin it negatively, it's hard to say that is a bad thing.
 
#37 ·
Kill em all. That's what f&g wants and that's what NJ hunters also want. It will be hard to change things with that mentality.
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True.

Also APR's don't require a change in how the Div. makes its money that would have to involve the legislature and thats a big issue.

870 do your numbers come from the Div. if so IMO they are suspect since they are not above manipulating things they don't agree with and you have o know that.
As I type this I sit 250 yards from vulchers feeding on a shed head buck that as a forkie was passed up multiple times by me and others hunting this area we all know bucks are more acident prone due to greater travel patterns and all that just goes with "Being a guy" is that part of the illegal kill total too?

Either way you slice it the F+G council wanting to pull the program via yet another survey that will undoubtedly LEAD the responding hunter to the "Right answer" is slight of hand on the part of the Div./Council once more.
 
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#39 ·
In what zones do 70% of the hunters want APR's? One of the major flaws in the current seasons is the "if its brown its down January season" You can let all the bucks you want walk during the fall only to get whacked during January when they drop their antlers. All those who think unlimited doe harvest is the way to go, how long do you think this can go on before it comes full circle? It isn't the length of the seasons as much as it is the bag limits. You want folks to be more selective? ANY buck regardless of age or size must be tagged with a buck tag. I would bet you won't be seeing as many buttons and spikes getting checked in. With the new phone in system all bets are off anyway.
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
Do you have a link or Email address to send my support letter for APRs
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Members do not have a state email since they are not state employees, however, if you know a member or two who go to County Federation meetings, if you go and talk with them they may give you their personal email to contact them.

or you can write them here:

NJ Fish and Game Council (or specific members thereof)
c/o N.J. Division of Fish and Wildlife
Mail Code 501-03
P.O. Box 420
Trenton, NJ 08625-0420

In what zones do 70% of the hunters want APR's?
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The Division held several forums where they put out thier negative spin on APR's, then mailed a "survey" to hunters in the proposed zones (28, 30, 31, 34 and 47) which was not very objectively composed either. Hunters in those zones still supported APR's with over 70% approval.

Some new idea has come to light where the individual asking for a new survey thinks you need 75 percent support for it to be successful...70 percent I guess is not enough.
 
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