New Jersey Hunters banner
Cancel
Create thread New Forums

Law & Ethics

Jump to Latest
21 - 35 of 35 Posts
#21 ·
SCENARIO
FACT 1) HUNTER "A" FARTED with the wind blowing south, south west 5 meters away from and in the direction of Hunter "1".

FACT 2) Hunter "A" is setup 5 meters from Hunter "1"

BOTTOM LINE

1) Hunter "1" smelled Hunter "a"'s turd.[ko]
 
#22 ·
Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do.
Click to expand...
AZ, not to defend all the maroons, but you're presenting a case with a little twist not seen in these here parts, but in essence is an old argument. It's never really settled. Basically, in NJ, this is the old "public land...my ladder means my territory" argument. The concept being that if I've planted my permenant stand for the season, no one should hunt within 100 yards of me. The difference is that it's not illegal to leave stands overnight. Therefore, hunter 1, has broken both law and ethics, by 1) the obvious hanging of a stand overnight and 2)trying to take advantage over another by leaving the stand there. Kind of difficult to justify getting angry at Hunter A, when Hunter 1 not only does not think about others, but blatantly breaks the law.

Was Hunter A unethical? Well, back to NJ. The hunter who leaves his ladder stand out all season, expecting no one will hunt near it, only to hunt it 2 or 3 times...Is he unethical? If he's not around, is the guy with a climber who sets up in the tree next to his ladder unethical? Neither are breaking the law are they???

IMO, Hunter 1 got what he deserved. Personally, if Hunter 1 were "truly" ethical, he should try blind hunting on his own land first, respecting the fact that not all are as fortunate as he is to have private land. But then again, "even the most rational approach to ethics is defenseless if there isn't the will to do what is right”
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
Discussion starter · #26 ·
I think that everyone is on the same page as far as private property rights concerning the actual real estate(and we had better be: that is black and white and there are actual legal repercussions).

I'll give you all another take on it, some of you folks are already "kind of" talking about the kind of situation that I'm going to describe. I live in Arizona now, the county that live in is bigger than the Sate of NJ. Anyway, some of THE BEST mule deer hunting ANYWHERE is up on the north rim of the Grand Canyon. Thousands and thousands of square miles of untamed big game country; up to and including buffalo. Anyway, you can be out in the absolute middle of nowhere and a someone will have placed paper pie plates in a juniper or pinion pine, like ornaments on a Christmas tree proclaiming "Hunter In Area/On Stand, Please Stay Away!" WHAT!!!! Or, and this is very common, someone claims a man-made ground blind(this type of blind can be DECADES old and modified and hunted by many people{hunting tags up there are 100% draw: no one is hunting year in and year out or even hunting gun and bow in a single season}) as theirs. Are you kidding me??? These "hunters" are amazing! And F&G out there just about says that in the Hunting Regulations: "Public Land is just that: PUBLIC! The fact that someone has placed signs out, created a blind or erected a stand does not entitle anyone one hunter or group to any specific piece of public property". I've seen these pie plates on foot trails, jeep trails, Forest Service Roads, around water holes and on and on. Where do these "Hunting Claims " end????
 
#27 ·
I'm not a lawyer. But I am bored at work:

From the LEGAL standpoint:

1) Hunter 1 has broken the law by leaving his stand overnight.

2) Hunter A has not broken any law.

From the ETHICAL standpoint:

1) Hunter A should not have used the stand.

a) Using a strange stand is unsafe. Known unsafe behavior endangers first responders and wastes resources that could be used to cover other emergencies.

b) You should not use other people's property without their permission.

i) Just because the law says you can do it without legal repercussions, it doesn't mean the law itself is ethical.

ii) Abandoned property can be taken or used, but a lock-on stand in working condition during hunting season cannot be presumed to be abandoned.

iii) Hunter A was not forced to use the stand. He could have hunted from the ground or have foregone hunting.

2) Hunter A should hunt in such a fashion that his target game animal, when shot, will cross Hunter 1s property line as an exception.

a) Recovery of game from other's property requires permission, which can be an intrusion upon Hunter 1s household.

b) Fleeing wounded game and recovery of game from other's property can possibly involve property damage.

c) Unrecovered game attracts predators, putting Hunter 1s family at risk.

d) A wounded animal on Hunter 1s property cannot be dispatched quickly.

3) Hunter A can hunt as close to the property line as he wants to, provided he adheres to point #2 above.

a) Hunter 1 knowingly purchased a property which was adjacent to an very popular public hunting area.

b) Hunter 1, by placing the food plots so close to the property line, would have been reasonably aware that increased deer traffic would attract other hunters.

c) Public land in our society is understood to belong to all equally. This is a social contract. No wealth, status, or office allows one to dictate to another how they can use that land, provided all parties satisfy other rules or laws.

i) Deer are a public resource, available on a first come basis.


NOTE:

Public land hunting is rife with potential conflict. It is one's duty to behave in such a fashion as to diminsh that chance. This is common sense. In the case above, both hunters did not minimize conflict. Yes, public land is public, but as hunters and as (mostly) males, we know that we are very territorial. On one hand you can say to yourself well I can hunt anywhere I want, but on the other hand you have to realize that someone picked this area as their favored spot, so you're increasing the chance for confrontation. You have to very carefully consider that hunting land is very limited and crowded. Someone is going to step on your toes just as surely as you're going to step on theirs.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
Good Stuff B B!!! My hat's off to you for such a great addition to this subject!
Just a little comment here and there:
1)
a)This was a quality set and to be honest safety wasn't figured into the choice to hunt that stand. However, I just got done reading post on this site where a seasoned hunter was using his own set which also used climbing sticks. The straps on his sticks broke as he was very near the top of his ascent: yes, safety should have been a factor!
1)
i-iii)The ethical end of things is exactly what I have questions about. I don't believe that is a pure black and white answer: that's Ethics. Now, never was there a question as to owned the hunting equipment(period). Hunter A had hunted that area from the ground(productively) and from a climber(productively) in the past. On this day, he took a legal short cut, mostly because of the superior vantage point for locating deer movements, the ethical debate of his actions weren't so apparent at the time.
2)
a,b&d)These issues are part of hunting. My NJ buddies and I hunt a 10 acre parcel in Jersey where we have had to knock on 3 & 4 doors during a tracking mission. It happens. This my surprise you, however of the doors that typically get knocked on, non-hunters(not anti's) are the most accommodating to our recovery efforts; hunting households are typically the most restrictive! Many times they want to monitor the recovery efforts, restrict it and let it be known that we are an intrusion!
One of our buddies hunts a 300 acre farm and it is 99% fields! Really! I would venture to say that 90% of his recovery efforts are outside of the private farm!
c)This is wolf, bear and mountain lion country! Hard to believe, however it is confirmed by F&G. There are not large resident populations of any them in area, however Hunter 1 lives in large predator country! Small predators are common. This is something that Hunter 1 and his family choose to live with day in and day out.
I'm glad that you had a little extra time today to share your thoughtful insight into our hunting issues.
 
#32 ·
it would make for more entertaining reading
Click to expand...
Wow you read the whole thing I fell asleep 1/2 way thru and woke up with a tatoo of my keyboard on my forehead.[ko]
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
Discussion starter · #35 ·
Here's an update:
One of the things that I didn't put in the original post was that how the private property owner proclaimed that he could ruin the hunting in the area by having his son, who is nine, out in the backyard shooting skeet, running his dogs and on and on.
I bowhunted that Public Property again last night. I have to park in a public access parking area, so it is apparent when I am there. Last night I was hunting about 250 yards from his property. So, in that magical last hour of light, here is his son riding around their property on a quad, he's out there yelling at the top of his lungs for "Joey"(I assume that is a dog). Much of this right on his property line. Anyway, I lost all respect for him. He told me that he was raised with ethics, well if he raising his son with the same ethics, the woods is now in store for another generation of empty morals and poor ethics thanks to this guy. What a shame.
 
21 - 35 of 35 Posts
About this Discussion
34 Replies
21 Participants
Last post:
AZSwampstomper
New Jersey Hunters
posts
3M
members
61K
Since
2005
A forum community dedicated to New Jersey’s hunters and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, gear, troubleshooting, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
General Hunting Discussions Member Classifieds Fishing Field Testing and Evaluation NJ Firearms ID Card & Gun Permits