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Discussion starter · #22 ·
NJBowhntr...I don't consider us 'at odds' about anything....was just bustin your chops...I don't harbor any ill will
Okay, good. [up]

Make the regs a 1 buck limit for all seasons and all weapons like Ohio, but then charge an extra $50 or $100 for a 2nd buck tag for any season and any weapon. The added income at some $$ amount per buck tag will justify the change in regs.
A proposal like was made to them (the $50.00 version), as well as alot of other good ideas, they will not do any of them.

They have done statewide surveys on this stuff. The result was 75 percent of hunters supported measures to protect bucks, even if it meant shooting less bucks, for the chance to shoot a mature buck.

I asked them about that at a meeting once. Actually, what I asked them was why they haven't considered some regulations to protect bucks, either ARP's or a reduction of buck tags statewide, in light of that survey.

The response was that since it was a statewide survey, they didn't really consider it accurate and wanted to find out what hunters in specific areas thought. That is almost word for word what Larry Herrighty said to me, and this was right after the "Statewide Crossbow Survey" that they did consider accurate. When I asked him about that, he masterfully changed the subject.

One thing is clear about those currently running deer management in NJ. They have an agenda and they continually twist, spin and manipulate data and surveys fit that agenda, no matter what the true results are. They are more like politicians with an agenda, than credible wildlife biologists collecting and analyzing data for deer management.

That is what I have learned after being involved with organizations that have worked with them for several years on deer management issues.

The Division is faced with tough challenges in NJ, and does alot of things right. Trout stockings come to mind right now, and something else they have done recently is the land acquisitions. They have picked up some nice pieces of land for the Wildlife Management Area system.

I really don't like to keep harping on them, but deer hunting and deer management is what I'm passionate about and they are doing a pretty bad job of that. The frustrating thing is I know that they know better, yet they continue to take us in the wrong direction because of their agenda.

That agenda is to raise revenue at any and all costs on the backs of deer hunters by selling deer as a commidty instead of actually managing them. For several years, that agenda and the goal of reducing the overall deer herd worked nicely together. We needed the deer herd reduced, they found ways to do that and bring in alot of revenue in the process. That is why we have a long and liberal, yet highly fragmented season and permit structure. That time has passed however, yet they refuse to give up the cash cow and do the right things for deer management in NJ.

The Fish and Game Council is just as responsible for this as well because no matter what half-baked idea the Division brings to them, they still have to approve it, and they have continued to approve practices that take deer management in the wrong direction.
 
am still very interested to hear what other members have to say.....
I want to start by saying I didnt read all the posts so I apologize in advance if I make a comment that has already been covered.

I'm kind of torn with the expansion of QDM. I was all for it in the beginning. Then I bought some property that I was able to manage and see what was going on in a limited scope. We bought the property in 07. In 08 we started putting out trail cams in earnest. Over one scrape that year we had 5 bucks that werent shooters and they werent all young. This year, we only got 2 shooters on cams and the buck sign was down significantly. So, is QDM working in or area that has plenty of public land and is hunted hard? Was it just a bad year? I dont know. Im beginning to wonder if we have the food needed in the area to get them to grow or we have a bad gene pool.

All that being said, I'm not ready to throw in the towel on QDM. I'm just not sure its a good idea to expand it yet. Just my opinion as one who No who has no game biology background. :D
 
Over one scrape that year we had 5 bucks that werent shooters and they werent all young. This year, we only got 2 shooters on cams
In wouldn't be relying on the trail cams as gospel. The biggest deer I see are not caught on trail cam but seen while scouting by sitting in August when the big ones are undisturbed and on a summer pattern. I have at least one, maybe two P&Y on my property and never caught them on cam. Part of QDM on the property is enhancing the habitat on your property to hold and attract deer, no matter what the acreage.
For someone that wants to manage their property, I would suggest joining QDMA. It is worth the $30/year with the articles and management ideas and programs. Well worth ther money for the read and information.
 
In wouldn't be relying on the trail cams as gospel.
Like I said, Im not throwing in the towel yet. I'll give the professionals the benefit of the doubt over my brief observations. That, and has been mentioned b4, if Fish and Game isnt going to decrease the buck permits, anything to limit the kill is a positive for now.
 
Duckmastor2, alot of times mature bucks dont come to a bait pile, if that is where you have your cameras set up.
Also are your neighbors shooting smaller bucks?


One of the major flaws that NJ has with their Antler point restrictions is that it was instituted on such a small scale in these limited zones that it is impossible to gather ACCURATE data.
If you look at the States that implemented Antler point restrictions on a larger scale, they were significantly more successful than those that attempt to micro manage a zone or a county.
A deer will travel miles in a day and possibly walk out of the antler restriction zones and be harvested.
This is why it is important to expand the antler point restriction zones.
If you are a fan of antler point restrictions or not, you have to realize that what the Division of F&G is currently doing is selling deer, not managing them.
There attitude is that they are doing the best job that could possibly be done.
I dont know about you but I was taught that there is always room for improvement.

sorry for the long post, I got on a roll
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
I'm kind of torn with the expansion of QDM. I was all for it in the beginning. Then I bought some property that I was able to manage and see what was going on in a limited scope. We bought the property in 07. In 08 we started putting out trail cams in earnest. Over one scrape that year we had 5 bucks that werent shooters and they werent all young. This year, we only got 2 shooters on cams and the buck sign was down significantly. So, is QDM working in or area that has plenty of public land and is hunted hard? Was it just a bad year? I dont know. Im beginning to wonder if we have the food needed in the area to get them to grow or we have a bad gene pool.
Scott, I'm very familiar with your property and the land around it: hundreds of acres of public land. It gets hunted very hard. I used to hunt there alot but it got so crowded, it was a mess. The soil and habitat are very good, and there have been some big bucks in the area in the past.

Without antler point restrictions, you would be in big trouble there because basically, you have a small parcel of private land that is subject to the heavy public land pressure all around it, with the execption of a few small private pieces like yours.

You are not going to be able to manage that land for mature deer with much success. It will be managed in the same manner the WMA that surrounds it is being managed because that is where the deer on your land live and die.

You have a nice spot, and scenic area but unless the state moves the WMA's into a much more restrictive Regulation set, like some of us have suggested, you will always have hunting very similar to what can be found across the road on the WMA.

By contrast, I know a few guys just 3 or 4 miles from you doing QDM and having great success.
 
Ducmastor, how many acres do you have? You can use the public land to your advantage by adjusting the habitat on your property to be a majority of bedding and food areas. Then you can get it to be a sanctuary for the bucks that run off the public into your piece. I've created food plots and bedding areas from previously "dead areas" and I can tell you they will use it.
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
So if the state goes to 1 buck only how will they fund themselves with the loss in revenue?
The proposal by QDMA was that the State expand the 3 point APR already in place in zones 27, 29, 35 and 63 to zones 28, 30, 31, 34 and 47. While reducing buck tags would be the preferred method in my opinion, this meeting was supposed to be about the APR proposal only.

On that note, I got my survey in the mail regarding this proposal. It's clear they do not want APR and have once again contructed a survey to get the results they want rather than just send out an objective, unbaised questionare.

These people have no shame. I don't know how anyone can defend them, seriously. You trash your own integrity and credibility trying to defend what they have done with this issue...both at the meeting, and now this contrived "survey". I'll start another thread with some fo the questions.
 
once again contructed a survey to get the results they want rather than just send out an objective, unbaised questionare.
Could scan the survey and post it here?
 
Everybody is so quick to trash the F & G when it seems they are tring to generate revenue so I'll ask again.

So if the state goes to 1 buck only how will they fund themselves with the loss in revenue?
 
Everybody is so quick to trash the F & G when it seems they are tring to generate revenue
What is their job discription? To make money or manage wildlife for the people of NJ and the overall good of the resource?
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
Everybody is so quick to trash the F & G when it seems they are tring to generate revenue so I'll ask again.

So if the state goes to 1 buck only how will they fund themselves with the loss in revenue?
A $5.00 salt water fishing license. Go get the number of salt water anglers in NJ from NJOA, resident and non-resident alike, and do the math.

However, that is not what this post is about. This post is about the lack of objectivity, honesty and integrity within the Division. They did it with the "other" issue I'm not allowed to mention to you ;) and they have continued that disgraceful behavior here.

RDF, I know you like to defend the Division blindly, so please go to the thread on the APR survey and tell me how you can defend that.

Revenue is only a sidebar issue at this point. My problem with them now, as it was with the last "survey" is that they are trashing themselves by throwing out all integrity while pretending surveys like this one and the last one are actually credible.

They have done this to themselves. Some of us have just been pointing it out and warning of the pitfalls, rather than being apologists for disgraceful behavior.

Reminds me of the drunk who blames his drunk driving arrest on me for arresting him, instead of blaming himself for getting sloshed and then driving.
 
RDF, I know you like to defend the Division blindly, so please go to the thread on the APR survey and tell me how you can defend that.
I don't defend them blindly & in fact have agreed with 99% of what you have said about the condition of our herd & the foolish bag limits. If you could see past for own Xbow hate you might understand this.

But...
I also relize how easy it is to sit back & plan the NJ deer magagement without haveing to pay for it. It takes alot more than protecting yearling buck to run the Division of F & G. Like it or not all this still has to be paid for.
 
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