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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Current Fish and Game regulations prohibit the use of smokeless powder in muzzleloaders during the muzzleloader season. I was wondering the forums opinion on this regulation. If you had a gun capable of handling smokeless powder i.e. manufacturer design would you like to see this regulation changed?
If you are against it I would like to know why? If you feel indifferent... say so.
 

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I don't hunt Muzzleloader. But I know of three guy who are useing it now in NJ & NY . I don't know it was prohibit in NJ. I hunt with one of the guy & he get's the powder from down south I think GA.
I can't see why you can't use it.
 

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I dont knww anything about muzzleloading. Is there a big difference between smokeless, and regular? Other than the obvious.[confused]


Here is my uneducated opinion; Unless there is some reason its unsafe, or unfair, I dont see why they wouldnt allow it. ???[confused]

Is there any action being taken to allow it? Or is that what you're trying to start up here?

Sorry for all the questions, Im just clueless when it comes to this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I am trying to start a "gr [no swearing please] roots" movement if popular opinion warrants it. A saboted .45 cal projectile or .50 cal. projectile is limited by its physical nature as being a long distance projectile. I think the states mandate of the non-use of smokeless stems from their fear of hunters using smokeless in guns not designed for it. Hardly anybody uses true black powder anymore. It is hard to obtain it is unstable and it is highly corrosive. Most current muzzle loader enthusiasts are implementing a black powder substitute like Pyrodex or Triple Seven. If I have a gun that is manufacturer tested as being capable of handling smokeless powder I feel that option should be afforded to me. I hate the mess associated with traditional black powder replacements.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Glad to see you here Randy... I'm curious if board members who hunt with a muzzleloader were aware that they could pursue their sport without the fuss of having to clean their weapon after each outing where the weapon was fired. Clearly the Savage is one of the most user friendly muzzleloader designs on the market today.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
It should only be legal if you are hunting over bait.
If you don't mind me asking.. What's the rational behind that??? You could have a bait pile on top of a hill and have a ground blind at a lower angle and be within your stated parameters...
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Mystic, I could respect that view if we all were limited to flintlocks, open sights, and patched round balls. The same arguement could be made for compound bows??? But the guy shooting an inline Knight or T/C with a 3-9X scope,saboted jacketed bullet isn't really shooting a smokepole either [confused]
As a hunter I have always tried to buy the best gear I could afford. I owe it to the game I pursue to kill as quickly and as humanely as possible. It is interesting to note that the most popular propellant for the Savage ML-II (AA5744)is in the same Department of Transportation (D.O.T.) classification as Pyrodex and Triple Seven and its chemical composition is actually older than either Pyrodex or Triple Seven.
It just irks that the state of NJ has a regulation against it...
 

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Alot of the old muzzleloaders ( sidelock, flintlock, in-lines) can't use smokeless powder, Some of the New T/C's say "DON'T USE SMOKELESS POWDER".

inline Knight or T/C with a 3-9X scope,saboted jacketed bullet isn't really shooting a smokepole either
If you use Black powder,Pyrodex or Triple Seven and it is classifid as blackpowder, then it is a smokepole. "Smokepole meaning a pole that smokes", Smokeless powder should not be used in the Muzzleloader season.

As a hunter I have always tried to buy the best gear I could afford. I owe it to the game I pursue to kill as quickly and as humanely as possible.
I'm not saying you shouldn't buy the best gear ( if you need it ). Some of the simpilest gear is sometimes better. Remember It's not the weapon that makes a hunter, it's the person that makes the hunter. No matter if you go out a buy a gun for $1,000.00 if you can't use it right, You shouldn't use it to hunt. A 35# long bow can kill a Moose just as easy as a compound at 65#'s, It's all about where you hit.

Mystic, I could respect that view if we all were limited to flintlocks, open sights, and patched round balls.
Well Venison, this is a poll and I voted "NO", I have a sidelock, open sights, patched ball, I also know people that have in-lines and they call it a smokepole too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
My question then, is who classifies powder. Certainly not Game and Fish. Powder companies have no jurisdiction to classify powder. If Pyrodex and Triple Seven are in the SAME D.O.T. classification then they shouldn't be allowed either. When these two propellants were originally manufactured they were called smokeless powder! There are reloading manuals utilizing Triple Seven for reloading centerfire cartridges. Hodgdon markets these propellants as Black Powder substitutes. It is semantics and they are classified in the same category as smokeless. They are in fact more modern than "smokeless" powder.
Loose blackpowder is DOT classified as 1.1 Hazardous Material. It is an explosive, and is harder to legally ship, store, and sell due to the rules that come with a 1.1 classification.

Hodgdon Pyrodex, Hodgdon Triple Se7en, American Pioneer, Goex Pinnacle, and Accurate Arms 5744 are all DOT 1.3 powders. They are all classified as smokeless. Perhaps American Pioneer is a bit more forthright in their products: Modern Gun Powder for Black Powder Guns™ is their trademark. That is what it is.
 

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My question then, is who classifies powder. Certainly not Game and Fish. Powder companies have no jurisdiction to classify powder. If Pyrodex and Triple Seven are in the SAME D.O.T. classification then they shouldn't be allowed either. When these two propellants were originally manufactured they were called smokeless powder! There are reloading manuals utilizing Triple Seven for reloading centerfire cartridges. Hodgdon markets these propellants as Black Powder substitutes. It is semantics and they are classified in the same category as smokeless. They are in fact more modern than "smokeless" powder.
Loose blackpowder is DOT classified as 1.1 Hazardous Material. It is an explosive, and is harder to legally ship, store, and sell due to the rules that come with a 1.1 classification.

Hodgdon Pyrodex, Hodgdon Triple Se7en, American Pioneer, Goex Pinnacle, and Accurate Arms 5744 are all DOT 1.3 powders. They are all classified as smokeless. Perhaps American Pioneer is a bit more forthright in their products: Modern Gun Powder for Black Powder Guns™ is their trademark. That is what it is.

What Ever........

A 35# long bow can kill a Moose just as easy as a compound at 65#'s, It's all about where you hit.
I ment 45# not 35#
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I like what Tony Knight had to say about the debate regarding the modern and traditional pursuits of the same sport....


Recently, an interview with Tony Knight from the American Rifleman, Mr. Knight has this to say: "I think we all ought to get together: I respect the man who wants to be traditional, but he should also respect me for wanting to be modern. What sets us [all muzzleloaders] apart, is the fact that we have one shot and we are handloaders in the field. We are handicapped with one shot when it comes to comparing us with general firearms. Even an archer can shoot several arrows before we can get a second shot ready to go. It's for that reason we have a separate season. Bless the hearts of those traditionalists because they started the [special muzzleloading] seasons, but now it's expanded, and to do this you have to welcome everyone. We are following the same course that compound bows did. You would be hard-pressed to find a hunting household in this nation that does not have a compound bow in it. I think the same thing for muzzleloading-- if we want it to grow, we have to accept everything."

 
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