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| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 5:30 PM | ||
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I was just reviewing the harvest info put out by Fish and Game for zones 28
& 29. There was a drop in both zones. What was curious what seasons caused the drop. The Bow and Muzzleloader Season kills were all steady or up. The 6 day shotgun and permit seasons harvest dropped dramtically. I wonder why? 2003 -04 2004-05 Six Day Buck 210 138 Zone 28 (72 Deer) Permit 279 226 Zone 28 (53 Deer) Six Day Buck 159 95 Zone 29 (64 Deer) Permit 372 339 Zone 29 (33 Deer) Total Harvest Loss All Seasons: Zone 28: 130 or 8.97% Zone 29: 19 or 1.70% __________________ "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." - John Quincy Adams
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| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 5:33 PM | ||
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| You have to ask why? Cause all these years hunters killed to many antlerless deer, now we are all paying the price of not seeing the numbers we saw back in the 80s & 90s....So its real simple, stop killing so many antlerless deer take 1 maybe 2, allow the others to walk, and stop hunting deer with shotgun after the New Year | ||
| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 5:39 PM | ||
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Couldn't have been the shitty weather could it? __________________ SEMPER FIDELIS
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| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 5:41 PM | ||
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| The only bad weather I was in was opening day of shotgun, and in my area it was snow allday | ||
| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 5:41 PM | ||
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Lots of bad weather during the 6-day...wind & rain. __________________ |
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| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 5:50 PM | ||
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The weather could have something to do with it for sure! If your going to stop hunting after December you can't limit it to shotgun. Stop ALL deer hunting! Whats the difference if you kill one with a bow, shotgun or muzzy? It's still one less deer! __________________ ............................................
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| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 6:02 PM | ||
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explaine this to me:
from January 1st till Febuary 15th the state allows unlimited antlerless deer with the shotgun, alot of these deer are bucks that dropped there racks, or BB that will have antlers come the following seasan, or does who are carrying babies or from January 1st till the 31st the state allows bow hunters to harvest 2 deer of either sex, we all know bowhunters are more selective then gun hunters It all comes down to simple math, take to much of your resources and it will be all gone |
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| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 6:05 PM | ||
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Look at the antlered deer harvest...lowest number of antlered deer taken since 1985, and lowest number of deer for six-day firearm since 1979. We've had other years with much worse weather, so something else has happened.
If patterns hold true, 2006 should be a banner year. __________________ Those who value unity among hunters, do not advance agendas that divide hunters. Logically, those who pursue divisive changes or agendas, despite the resulting division, care more for advancing their agenda than they do for unity among hunters.
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| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 6:08 PM Last Edited By: BOWHUNTERCOP | ||
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| What has happen is this unlimited anlterless hunting has caught up to us, we the hunters did what the state wanted, the goal has been met, now its time for both the hunters and the state to cut back on the antlerless deer, allow them to reproduce | ||
| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 6:19 PM | ||
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How about from Jan 1st to the 31st 2 deer with shotgun? I don't care how selective you think you are unless you get real close I MEAN REAL CLOSE like inside a doe your not going to be able to tell if she's prego! Season length is not the answer. Deer harvest numbers is! Limit the number of deer that any one hunter can take! It's that simple! If I can only take 3 deer then it really doesn't matter how long I have to take them! If we can only take 3 deer period I think we would all become more selective!
I also agree the unlimited does is not going to work because of all the deer hiding in between the houses. If I kill 20 deer on farmer Johns property it's not going to reduce the number of deer in the neighborhood down the street! __________________ ............................................
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| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 6:24 PM | ||
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| lets think of the stress we are putting the herd in, they are being hunted for 6 months out of the year | ||
| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 6:28 PM | ||
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I agree!!!!! 2 weeks into Jan would and should be more then enough season! The end of Jan is fine with me too. I do more deer hunting in Jan then any other month! __________________ ............................................
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| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 7:55 PM | ||
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I agree that the doe limits should be trimmed. Its obvious from the TOTAL harvest across the state that there are less deer available. It just struck me that the shotgun season is where the hit was most visable. Zone 29 is a QDM zone. Been that way for quite a few years. Were the bucks taken, although fewer, better quality? If so, thats was the goal wasnt it? As for zone 28, thats not QDM. But the other season harvests (Bow, ML) were stable or greater.
Maybe less people are hunting the gun seasons? Maybe the WMAs are too crowded and people are fed up? Maybe more people are giving up shotguns and moving to other methods? Or maybe, there really is a heck of alot less deer. I was just looking for your thoughts and some interesting debate. Thanks for the responses! Keep'um coming! __________________ "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." - John Quincy Adams
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| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 9:24 PM | ||
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Too many doe days and too much pressure from mid Dec to Feb 1st in many Zones.
The weather was real bad in Zone 2 for the shotgun week and I am sure that this reduced the harvest. Also, it seems that there are less hunters in the woods and this will continue unless we can get kids involved. Check out NYS with the Sat opener---would be nice for NJ as well. __________________ NRA Life Member
Cedar Hill Gun Club Zone 2 |
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| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 9:40 PM | ||
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A few years ago on the bowsite message board I started telling hunters to stop killing so many does and I the people on that board HAMMERED me telling me that I was an outlaw and an a$$hole, and saying that "we have to do what the state wants us to do and there is no way around it",guys made comments like "well if the state wants me to kill as many deer as I can then I am going have to do it" and "the state wants the deer dead so if it's brown then it's down". And hunters are STILL doing it.
I'm sure that a few of you on this site remember the conversations on that site.... So now I'm going to say it....I TOLD YOU SO!!!!! Hunters helping the hungry is a good program but people abuse it, they shoot deer just because they have a place to get rid of it,I've heard guys brag that they have killed up to 30-40 deer, what kind of sportsman would want to shoot that many deer, I just don't get it. Past actions are are going to haunt hunters for years to come. The extended seasons have got to go,it's not only the hunting that hurts the deer,it's all the driving(pushes) that gun hunters do during tough winter times,you can't make the deer run all over the place day after day, week after week,when they(the deer) are trying to stay idle so that they don't burn off all of their stored fat. The more they run the more fat they burn,the weaker the deer become. I could go on and on but thats it for now. Sorry for venting.......DBUCK __________________ "I do not know of a greater good that an individual can render humankind
than to break the chains of political superstition." -- Tom Paine IF YOU DON'T STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS, PLEASE, FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM !!! |
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| Posted: 22 Apr 2005 10:27 PM | ||
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I'm just glad it was not only me that had a bad year . I think BHC is dead on . Stop the unlimitted doe harvest and put a small number on it .
I love deer meat as much as the next guy but , would also like to see the 3 point rule in each zone . This will not only build up great bucks but will build up the herd number at the same time . Just my two cents so , please dont hammer me on my thoughts . Don __________________ |
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 7:45 AM | ||
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I would suggest anyone with issues with the season lengths or bag limits, show up at their county Federation meetings and talk to F&G council members to let your feelings known. Also go to the F&G council meetings and talk to the deer biologists who make suggestions to the council.
I agree many areas have less deer then they had in the "good old days" but 100+ deer per square mile is probably not the best density for the deer and other species that share the woods. __________________ "To be unarmed and therefore helpless in the face of evil is irresponsible and in fact complicit to said evil. If you knowingly and intentionally go forward incapable of stopping evil, you assist in its progress. Only a person free to choose to protect himself is truly respecting God's gift of life." Ted Nugent
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 10:48 AM | ||
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Quote:
I agree many areas have less deer then they had in the "good old days" but 100+ deer per square mile is probably not the best density for the deer and other species that share the woods. Joe, we're not all talking about 100 deer per square mile. In my case, I'd like to see 30 to 40 deer per square mile again, like it was in the 1980's and part of the 1990's. Now, in many area's, the State, and QDMA estimate the deer herd at 15 deer per square mile or less, and there is still unlimited anlterless tags available. The State is seeing it, they are just slow to move on it, but they will act. Two years ago, zones 35 (which has seen one of the most dramatic herd reductions anywhere in the state I'm aware of) was moved from a regulation set that allowed shotgun til the end of January, to a set that only has 10 days of antlerless gun season. That was a help, but it took them too long to act. The deer population in some parts of that zones are less than 10 per square mile. Quote:
Zone 29 is a QDM zone. Been that way for quite a few years. Were the bucks taken, although fewer, better quality? If so, thats was the goal wasnt it? As for zone 28, thats not QDM. But the other season harvests (Bow, ML) were stable or greater. Maybe less people are hunting the gun seasons? Maybe the WMAs are too crowded and people are fed up? Maybe more people are giving up shotguns and moving to other methods? Or maybe, there really is a heck of alot less deer. Scott, if you go back to before the 3 point restriction was put into place, you will see something that may help explain what is going on with zones 27, 28 and 29. I know for a fact, because several have been caught, that some hunters check deer in as killed in zone 28, when in reality they take bucks not legal in a 3 point (zone 35) and check them in 28. The first few years saw a dramatic decline in deer registered as killed in 35, yet a big increase in zone 28. It also happened in zone 25 (no restriction) and I imagine some of the same could have happened with 27 and 29, although zone 27 and 29 didn't decline as much. There was alot of people registering deer in a zone they didn't kill it in to get around having to wait for a buck with 3 points on a side. In my opinion, that accounts for a large part of the increase in the deer harvest numbers for zone 28 and 25, and the decrease in 35 that began shortly after the antler restriction was put in place. The decrease in 35 specifically can also be traced to the implementation of the unlimited antlerless gun seasons lasting til the end of January. The harvest figures for zone 35 dropped from being between 1700 and nearly 2000 for seasons 1995 to 1998 to about 1200 deer in recent years...some due to out-of-zone registrations, but more due to lower deer numbers. The herd is down in all those zones now, but the harvest went up, specifically in bow season because, in my opinion, of the EAB in the early season. Those first 3 weeks produced a BUNCH of fawns, some with buttons, some with spots, as well as does killed so that hunters could have a crack at a buck on the September feeding pattern. I like the early season, but hated the EAB rule for down here because the herd in these zones could not support it. After just two seasons of being forced to kill 'excess' deer we don't have, hunters are finding it harder to just see a deer down here in many places. That leads to hunters being less willing to p [no swearing please] up deer because they don't get shot opportunities very often. So they kill them when they get the chance, and the cycle repeats itself. A monster was created when F & W convinced us that we could not shoot too many deer. Now that numbers are declining, that attitude has to change but that is hard to do. Another part of the problem that I hear from many people is that we pay so much for licenses...permits, more permits, etc., that hunters EXPECT to get more for their money, so limiting the number of days and deer taken will meet with alot of resistance. In other words, we are paying alot, so we should get alot. I don't know how to fix it. There are alot of other factors that play into it as well. In some places I see the deer numbers rebounding in zone 28, but that is not good. One place in particular is a piece of woods I've hunted for 28 years. Recently, housing developments have been popping up like weeds and deer now find refuge in the small pockets in the back yards. I hunted a 98 acre piece that is bordered on both sides by houses and small (1/2 acre or so) wood lots. In the 1980's (before houses and heavy hunting pressure) we had great hunting in that woods, then came long seasons, unlimited tags, and scarce deer. Now, since houses have been popping up, the deer are coming back...but they will travel 1/2 a mile to a bean field through peoples back yards and those little unhuntable woodlots, crossing two roads in the process, instead of our 98 acres of hardwoods and laurel thickets that border the same field. They also bed in those small backyard patches, and hardly ever go in the woods we hunt, or should I say used to hunt. That place is being cleared as I type this for more houses......maybe that is why the state wants us to shoot them all while we can. __________________ Those who value unity among hunters, do not advance agendas that divide hunters. Logically, those who pursue divisive changes or agendas, despite the resulting division, care more for advancing their agenda than they do for unity among hunters.
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 11:27 AM | ||
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Quote:
I'd like to see 30 to 40 deer per square mile again 30 to 40 deer per square mile isn't a realistic number. Quote:
The maximum density tolerable for native timber species is 20-25 deer per square mile. To retain an existing healthy shrub layer, the maximum density should not exceed 10 deer per square mile. Some where in all of this is a happy medium, because what we as hunters might want to see isn't necessarily the best for the deer population or the environment. I miss the days of seeing 40+ deer while out hunting too, but I know that those numbers don't represent a healthy environment. __________________ SEMPER FIDELIS
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 1:55 PM | ||
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I have emailed F&G many times pleading for reduced seasons/reduced buck take/QDM but it falls on deaf ears. I constantly cite succesful whitetail states like ILL and IA but usually get told it's different in Jersey. I think that things will not change and it's a matter of just adapting and making the best. If one is lucky enough to hunt some primo land and maybe even get a crack at some semi-suburban areas then you might nail a big buck. __________________ NRA Life Member
Cedar Hill Gun Club Zone 2 |
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 2:21 PM | ||
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The biggest problem I see is the deer are getting into no-hunt zones and staying there all day and only going out at night to feed! Like I said before killing 15 deer on the Jones Farm does nothing to the heard of 100 deer living around the houses down the road! I think there are just as many deer in NJ as the good old days but they have more places to go that we can't! I'm still seeing those 30 deer heards like in the good old days. The only difference is I'm seeing them in the neighborhoods where the woods used to be! As soon as hunting season comes around (bow and small game) and people are taking to the woods the deer start to head for the houses! THEY KNOW! As long as they are not being chased from the yards they are going to stay there! Why would they come back to the woods to get shot at! The bow hunters are seeing better bucks because of the rut and the deer forget about the danger for a few weeks!
Less land to hunt and more places for the deer to hide safely is the real problem! IMHO __________________ ............................................
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 3:30 PM | ||
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There are alot of factors invovled and no fast solutions. In zone 35 home much land has been taken to development, how many hunters lost there land and are hunter numbers down. If the harvest has gone from 1700-2000 to 1200 then the management plan has been working. Go down any road, any time of the year and see how many deer you count in a 50 mile ride. Then take the same ride or make a seperate count of the road kills. Most of us only remember the unbalanced herds of the 80's & 90's when there was an explosion of deer. Does anyone remember the days when there were no deer in south jersey and you would have to go to PA or Maine to kill a deer. Most of us on this board have only been hunting for an average according to another post 15-25 years. Well, the man who raised me and still goes with me from time to time has been gunning for 65+ years, before WWII. He has seen no deer in the 50's to boat loads in the late 80's, his take is the land use and over harvest of does after breeding. If you harvest a doe before the rut, you are only killing one deer, after you are killing two or three. When is most of the anterless deer taken, after the rut when the buck are tired, wary and saving fat reserves. I'm fine with the harvest of doe, just do it before say Dec. 15. February is way to late in my opinion. The state has gotten to used to all the revenue the permits make. I'm an american, a union carpenter and an outdoor fanatic all my life and would be willing to give up deer hunting for a year to prove a point to the state. Would you? A volunteer strike against the state. What message would that send, economic impact, both direct loss of revenue and in-direct losses ie insurance, crop damage, non-hunting citizens complaints to Fish & Game. Together we bargain, divide we beg. Very true statement and would never happen, because of different views on the subject. You can see just on this post alone. Oh, yea! You talk about checking deer in different zones, what about the amount of does that never get checked in by outlaws that just don't have the time to check-in there deer. It happen more then one might think. How many times have you seen a half processed deer laying around where you hunt. I have seen plenty. Trash bags with carcasses and such. These aren't road kills and the local butcher I'm sure didn't do it.
Till our trails cross, Ryan |
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 3:48 PM | ||
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I have spent some time looking a census information and here is my find.
Population: 1990=7,730,188, 2000=8,638,396 Housing units: 2002=3,372,572 Land area: 7,417 sq. miles Persons per sq. mile: 1134.4 |
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 3:56 PM | ||
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Zone 35 census information.
1990=230,082 to 2000=254,673 to 2003=266,962 a growth of 4.8% between 4-1-2000 & 7-1-2003. Housing units 98,198 Land Area: 325 sq. miles Persons per sq. mile: 784.3 What is the deer density and do you think 170,000+ hunters can compete against 8,638,396 people. We the hunters only make up 1.967% How important is it now to vote and make your voice heard. Also, how much money does the sportsman contribute to the land and envoriment. I'm going to find out. The things this state p [no swearing please] while you are asleep at night would be a fearful nightmare, but it is reality! Till our trails cross, Ryan |
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 4:31 PM | ||
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More information:
NJ sportsman spent $700 million fishing and $151 million hunting, for a total of $851 million. Trip related $441 million, Equipment $348 million, Liscenses $137 million, Auxiliary and Special liscenses,permits $211 million, Other $62 million. In New jersey there are 855,000 sportsman, 806,000 anglers and 135,000 hunters, of this there are 10,000 non-resident hunters. 110,000 are big-game and 61,000 are small game. Since 1996 fishing has declined 24% (this figure is stunning to me) in 1996 we had 1,059,000 anglers, today we have 806,000 anglers. A net loss of 46% revenue from fishing alone. We have losted 15,000 resident hunters in NJ since 1991 for a net loss of 30% of our revenue. These figures are the same that our state uses to figure there data. With the fisheries programs getting a much needed boost, I now see the reason why$$$$$$$$. Could you imagine if its 700 million now at a loss of 46 percent it was $1.02 billion in 1991. Ouch!!! Also, take a note at the Auxiliary & Special revenue $211 million ($199 fishing/$12 hunting) that is alot of stamp and permit money. Fishing is higher because of the commerical sector. Till our trails cross, Ryan |
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 4:38 PM | ||
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I try to research a subject to it's fullest before I post. Their are many views and opinions, but facts are facts. On a lighter note, I think we should lower our number from 170,000 hunter to 135,000. Damn, I was watching that members number grow and now we may never reach 170,000. In a sentence "Get youths involved." I was fishing a stocked pond today, the only youth out of 15 people was my son. If all these men don't have children, maybe gay marriage is a real issue.
Till our trails cross, Ryan |
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 7:32 PM | ||
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Bloodtrails....Go to the Federation meetings??? Thats a joke. The federation couldn't care less about the bow seasons,if it doesn't apply to the gun seasons then they would rather not acknowledge it. __________________ "I do not know of a greater good that an individual can render humankind
than to break the chains of political superstition." -- Tom Paine IF YOU DON'T STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS, PLEASE, FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM !!! |
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 7:41 PM | ||
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Dbuck,
What county are you talking about? If bowhunters like you don't go to meetings they shouldn't expect to be represented. In my county we are well represented. BTW, the Federation fully supports the Sunday bowhunting bills. __________________ "To be unarmed and therefore helpless in the face of evil is irresponsible and in fact complicit to said evil. If you knowingly and intentionally go forward incapable of stopping evil, you assist in its progress. Only a person free to choose to protect himself is truly respecting God's gift of life." Ted Nugent
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 7:43 PM | ||
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Damn I learned something... I'm not married,I have no kids and I fish.... OH MY GOD I'M GAY!!! Thanks for pointing that out to me Ryan,I could have sworn I liked women. __________________ "I do not know of a greater good that an individual can render humankind
than to break the chains of political superstition." -- Tom Paine IF YOU DON'T STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS, PLEASE, FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM !!! |
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2005 10:16 PM | ||
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Could have sworn you liked (as in past tense)women? Liking them don't make babies! I was an observation. I'm not say all men have kids, but the other 13 guys there today, well 10 were between 30 and 40 years of age they don't have a nephew or a niece, neighborhood kid, etc. Nobody seems to want to be bothered with it and they wonder why the sport is losing it population (voting numbers). You do your thing, I'll do mine. I prefer to take a kid, I have harvest every type of game this state has to offer and on a Saturday or Sunday it's nice to see the expresation on there face. It keeps the sport alive to me. Past the gay thing did you get any valuable information from the statistics.
Till our trails cross, Ryan |
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