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| Posted: 11 Dec 2006 12:39 AM | ||
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I'd love to see NJ go to two buck tags a year per hunter. The second tag being a "trophy tag" of some sort. Be it 8pts or better or spread or some method of keeping it from being a smaller, and hopefully younger buck. It is difficult to set a regulation that applies statewide that is easy to adhear to in the field and achieve the desired result of allowing the smaller bucks a chance to grow up.
Allow doe limits to be set by zone in an attempt to keep the herd within the carrying capacity of the land and to get the buck to doe ratio somewhere closer to what it needs to be. Any button buck would burn a buck tag. DGFORD, it looks like we hunt the same ground in 34 and 45. I like the fact that the roads are getting overgrown. It keeps people who don't want to work a bit harder than driving to within 50 yrds of their stand out of the deeper parts of that area. It gives me a little better chance of having a spot or two that isn't crowded out by someone else. I agree with you on the poor planting that went on this year and last year too. A few years ago, there was some decent work done out there. Milo and some assorted succulants along with the cover stuff for the birds. __________________ Just a guy with a bow, some arrows, and a lot of hope...
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| Posted: 11 Dec 2006 6:22 AM | ||
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Were this upcoming years changes approved and listed? I thought I read somewhere that they are getting rid of EAB, possibly doing away with APR, and limiting buck tags.
Can anyone confirm that? I have mixed feelings on the APR. Im not sure if its the answer, but it could be. Possibly in conjunction with the reduced buck tags (2 at most). Heres another question. How many guys actually take more than one small buck a year? Are there a lot of guys who are taking 3 or more small bucks a year? If there are a lot of guys killing multiple small bucks, a reduction in buck tags will help greatly. If there arent though, I doubt we would see much change even when limited to one buck tag. 
I do agree with Stealthy about the Non-Res coming here to hunt trophy bucks if we could realize NJ's potential. Their licenses would bring in a lot of money to the financially floundering NJDFW. While having an influx of Non-Res hunters may not sound very inviting, we have the home field advantage. We live here and can watch the areas we hunt on a daily basis. Chances are they come here for a week at a time, with limited time to scout. Right? __________________ "Only in dictionaries does SUCCESS come before WORK." -Alfred K. Henderson
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 6:15 PM | ||
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| I'd have to say...shorter gun seasons, I like the unlimited does as a management tool to keep the buck to doe ratio down on property, fewer buck tags and I really do like the 3 points on 1 side rule. That would keep all the small spikes and 4 pointers from being shot. In my opinion this would produce bigger and older bucks. | ||
| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 6:48 PM | ||
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looks like we hunt the same ground in 34 and 45. I like the fact that the roads are getting overgrown. It keeps people who don't want to work a bit harder than driving to within 50 yrds of their stand out of the deeper parts of that area There was a monster killed on public land in zone 34 this year...last hour of the shot gun season. I have a picture but don't know if the guy wants it posted. I'll have to ask him, it's worth seeing. __________________ Those who value unity among hunters, do not advance agendas that divide hunters. Logically, those who pursue divisive changes or agendas, despite the resulting division, care more for advancing their agenda than they do for unity among hunters.
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 7:17 PM | ||
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the state just needs to cut back on the number of buck tags and stop allowing the damm antlerless shooting gallery in NJ, try shooting some of the flying rats like crows and geese if you want to kill alot of something __________________ A true outdoorsman gives more to nature than he takes out!
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 7:31 PM | ||
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| Buck tags need to be cut waaaayyyyyyy back. Thats the best way i think. The problem with the 3 point on one side rule is that some deer never get that big and they keep passing on those crappy genes while the ones that are getting bigger are the only ones that are allowed to be takin. | ||
| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 7:55 PM | ||
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I have to say one thing....its about BBs!
For those of you who dont know its a BB shame on you...I will never buy the excuse I shot it then realized it was a BB. You can always tell what it is BEFORE you shoot and if not that means you have rushed it. Take your time and spend 5 seconds to study the animal and you can tell the difference. As for management...you guys can argue this to the death but I doubt we will see anything happen in our lifetime...its jersey lets get real. But if we were to get something done I will be more then willing to only allow ONE buck a year no matter the season. TWO the max! Leave the season lengths in place for the reasons Jim stated but limit the amount of game taken. EAB be gone! To many BBs taken this way. I hunt for my own reasons but I have started practicing QDM on my own for the past several years and no I have no benefited from it yet b/c no one else around me does. But I do my best. I have passed ALOT of nice deer this year b/c I have targeted the nicest deer in my area. The only other way I would shoot a buck other then that is if it was severely wounded and wouldn't make it otherwise. __________________ The tension on your fingers, the sound of the string dropping on unsuspecting prey, feeding the soul, leaving memories in the air...thats what its all about!
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 7:57 PM | ||
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The problem with the 3 point on one side rule is that some deer never get that big and they keep passing on those crappy genes while the ones that are getting bigger are the only ones that are allowed to be takin. This is true but I think the bigger problem is that the better younger bucks will be taken before they have a chance to reach their prime or p [no swearing please] on their genes. The bucks that I am talking about are the deer who start out with 6-8 points. These deer will be legal at such a young age and most guys will simply shoot them because they are a legal deer. This is what i believe many people call high grading where you are taking out the better quality bucks at a younger age before they have a chance to develop. __________________ NJOA
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 8:00 PM | ||
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I agree. 2 bucks a season PERIOD. No matter how you take them. Just 2 should help. 
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 8:03 PM | ||
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MS22,
I used to be against antler restrictions because of High Grading as well, but then it dawned on me one day. I think I posted this here before but heres an example: Life with Antler restrictions: Billy Bob sees a young 8 pointer. KABOOOM! Dead buck. (too bad too, he had good genetics) Life without Antler restrictions: Billy Bob sees a young 8 pointer. KABOOM! Dead buck. (too bad too, he had good genetics) With or without antler restrictions, that buck is dead meat! Now the only arguement I can think of is this: If Billy Bob saw a smaller 4 pointer before hand, he would have killed that and been tagged out. Therefore he never would have saw the young 8. True, but theres no telling what that young 4 may grow up to be too. Perhaps he was born late and is only sporting half of his potential head bone. I'm not saying I have the answer, and Im not saying I disagree with the idea of high-grading, but does it really make a difference in the real world? __________________ "Only in dictionaries does SUCCESS come before WORK." -Alfred K. Henderson
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 8:12 PM | ||
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| Matty, thats a perfect example of why the antler restrictions dont help. However as u stated, if the 4 walked by earlier "Billy" fills his tag. Even though the 4 might have had potential for the future, he might not have. And you already know that the young 8 had the good genes. So having no restrictions on rack size could only help because the larger deer is going to be killed either way with the restriction in place. Without it a smaller deer with "possibly" weeker genes will go down. | ||
| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 8:17 PM | ||
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Im so confused, Im not sure what Im for anymore.
I think the reduction in buck tags is the best way to go about it. Less bucks killed means more bucks to make it to a higher age class. But it would have to be something extreme like Stealthy said. One, Two buck tags at the most. Antler restrictions might possibly help too. (reason being, its harder to fill the buck tag if you have to wait on an 8 or better. But again, Im so confused when it comes to the APR. It could help, but it could also hurt. __________________ "Only in dictionaries does SUCCESS come before WORK." -Alfred K. Henderson
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 8:25 PM | ||
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Quote:
Life with Antler restrictions: Billy Bob sees a young 8 pointer. KABOOOM! Dead buck. (too bad too, he had good genetics) Life without Antler restrictions: Billy Bob sees a young 8 pointer. KABOOM! Dead buck. (too bad too, he had good genetics) With or without antler restrictions, that buck is dead meat! Now the only arguement I can think of is this: If Billy Bob saw a smaller 4 pointer before hand, he would have killed that and been tagged out. Therefore he never would have saw the young 8. True, but theres no telling what that young 4 may grow up to be too. Perhaps he was born late and is only sporting half of his potential head bone. I'm not saying I have the answer, and Im not saying I disagree with the idea of high-grading, but does it really make a difference in the real world? Ill have to agree here. I guess the best answer here would be just the limitng of buck tags with or without AR and hoping people stop taking buttons. I dont want to be the one to tell people what they can and cant shoot but I do like to see people p [no swearing please] on small bucks. It might take a little more effort but they will be rewarded. __________________ NJOA
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 8:29 PM | ||
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I think it really depends where you are at for all this. More areas have bigger populations and especially pine bucks dont grow too big. Half the time you cant tells it's a buck until your on top of it. But for me as a youth, i can even take extra bucks on youth days. __________________ To fish or not to fish...what a stupid question
2008 totals: 500+ bass caught...I finally lost count 4 pound bass: 3 5 pound bass: 2 still lookin for that 6 lber...or the state record? In search of my first deer - with the bow  |
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 8:36 PM | ||
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 9:11 PM | ||
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People on this site need to start realizing what a the difference is between deer of different age groups. I seem some of the pics of 1 1/2 year old six or eight point bucks w/ 10" spreads and want to puke. That is great for a youth or senior hunter but not for someone hunting for years. Besides, a mature doe would probably dress out at a higher weight. Imagine what that 1 1/2 year old buck w/ a 10" spread could have been at 3 1/2 years. Hunters should target more does in areas which have a high population and should restrict themselves to older bucks statewide. Imagine what the results could be... I agree and thats the way I hunt. Its tough though, and I think thats why you would never get everyone on board. Some people just dont have the time or the desire to kill an old buck. Lets face it, killing a mature whitetail buck isnt nearly as easy as killing a young buck. __________________ "Only in dictionaries does SUCCESS come before WORK." -Alfred K. Henderson
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 9:13 PM | ||
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Two buck tags simple answer.P [no swearing please] on some! Let them grow. I can tell you I just saw a 180+ gross come from a nearby property. It works. Not the norm, but I can tell you it is in our hands. No matter how many we can legally kill, we don't have to. If you only can tag two bucks, you will be more careful. We all have shot lots of small ones, myself included.
But I can tell you I will be shooting less and hunting more.Good luck and good hunting. __________________ Can't wait to see the the "change".
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 9:18 PM | ||
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There was a monster killed on public land in zone 34 this year...last hour of the shot gun season. I have a picture but don't know if the guy wants it posted. I'll have to ask him, it's worth seeing. I heard there was a good one taken on Sat in the last hour of daylight. I didn't get to see a pic or get any of the details really. Just one of those someone heard from someone who heard who knew someone else kinda deals. Didn't know if it was true or not. I do know the 12 killed by crooked horn was a beauty...  __________________ Just a guy with a bow, some arrows, and a lot of hope...
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 9:28 PM | ||
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The question is what are your goals;
To manage the deer population to a land carrying capacity. or To manage the herd for its trophy potential. __________________ |
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 9:39 PM | ||
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To improve the quality of bucks in NJ is simple but would be met with resistance.
1) Reduce the buck tags 1 for bow and 1 for gun. Then sell a quality tag good for a buck any season that has a branched antler with a spread as wide as the ears(this way if you saw a mature giant 4 point it would be legal) 2) Protect button bucks. If eab is kept a hunter should not be rewarded for killing a button. Make it legal to check in but make it NOT count towards your eab or bad requirement. 3) Shorten all seasons. If you want to have bow come in early then make it antlerless only for 2 weeks in Sept then open the statewide season. Make the whole month of Dec shotgun or muzzleloader with a sensible antlerless limit. The make winter bow the first 3 weeks of Jan. This will reduce the stress on all deer and have them come through the winter in better condition. I am not a biologist but I have been a member of the quality deer management association since it started. I have attended many qdm seminars and classes. So I do have somewhat of a clue as to what I am talking about. Guys if you want to see any of this stuff happen the fish and Wildlife Council has to hear it from all sportsmen. Bacs put the address up so use it and if you can show up at one of their metings at Assunpink. __________________ PSE X Force Baby!
UBNJ Ocean County Rep. AC Super Slim 340/Blazers G5 Tekan 11 extra cut blades There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness" Ah Bowhunting! |
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 9:56 PM | ||
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And prove the Anti's point about hunting being about nothing more than Trophies and not sound management. I'm just playing Devil's advocate here.
we need to find that perfect balance between numbers and Quality __________________ Hunt with a Vizsla, Cause life's to short to hunt with an ugly dog!
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 10:01 PM | ||
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2) Protect button bucks. If eab is kept a hunter should not be rewarded for killing a button. Make it legal to check in but make it NOT count towards your eab or bad requirement. Take it one step further and make the hunter use one of those Buck tags to check it in. This may tempt someone to the darkside and not register the deer. But true hunters wouldnt be able to live with themselves if they poached a deer. Poacher will do whatever they want despite the rules. They are not hunters. __________________ "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." - John Quincy Adams
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 10:05 PM | ||
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3 points or more. if the little ones can grow than you got something. __________________ Take your video camera with you, make the hunt last forever.
The South jersey Pines contain the oldest deep population within the state (fact).http://www.myspace.com/spykbucproductions [url] http://www.jerseywhitetails.com[/url] |
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 10:06 PM | ||
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I'll tell'ya there's no 100% fool proof way to tell a BB from a doe at 20 yards or more! I shot one this year I was positive was a doe and it turned out to be a button. and before anyone get's on me for it yes I p [no swearing please] on BB's if I can see the knobs __________________ Hunt with a Vizsla, Cause life's to short to hunt with an ugly dog!
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 10:09 PM Last Edited By: Cat | ||
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Quote: Why not?This is no time to discuss dancing girls Mike!
There's another problem with taking deer after the horns fall off. From a distance buck or doe? You think its a doe and it has a big body and short face and it may have been a good buck? So that's another way bucks are being taken and if he hasn't any horns your not sure what he was. 3 bucks with bow now. 2 with shotgun first week then after that 1 buck for a long season. ML 1 buck and in all season unlimited does. How is the Fish and game going to listen to any reason when they are maybe subsidized by the states insurance company's that want all deer dead so they don't have to pay for the animal collisions. How are we going to win up against those odds? 
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 10:21 PM | ||
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When you go over to the BB there are definitely separate features on him from a doe but it's to late then.
1) They act more regal in there posture. 2) They usually are tallier and have a longer body. 3) Their face is shorter and blockier and not long and narrowed as a doe. 4) The buttons on top of the head are showing as little lumps. Went I have walked up to one I always knew as soon as I got with in feet of him. I have had difficulty most times seeing some of the features some times from 10 on out. The lighting in the woods from the canopy sometimes has cast a different light and I didn't see very well. Not one time I walked up to one I wasn't aggravated though. To shoot one is really some times a mistake and some times your thinking of that EAB tag and not looking as close as we should. 
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2006 10:26 PM | ||
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People on this site need to start realizing what a the difference is between deer of different age groups. I seem some of the pics of 1 1/2 year old six or eight point bucks w/ 10" spreads and want to puke. That is great for a youth or senior hunter but not for someone hunting for years. Besides, a mature doe would probably dress out at a higher weight. Imagine what that 1 1/2 year old buck w/ a 10" spread could have been at 3 1/2 years. Hunters should target more does in areas which have a high population and should restrict themselves to older bucks statewide. Imagine what the results could be... Read the thread something like "whats a trophy to you?" What you like to hunt isn't everyones idea so dont nock other peoples animals. Thats very rude and a real jerkoff thing to say. If you dont like the deer people kill leave or shut your mouth. We are not all in it for monster trophies bud! Some of us like hunting for other reasons! __________________ The tension on your fingers, the sound of the string dropping on unsuspecting prey, feeding the soul, leaving memories in the air...thats what its all about!
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| Posted: 31 Oct 2007 6:04 PM | ||
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Ok, HOW to improve NJ bucks... This may take me awhile... haha
I think BACS' original suggestion is pretty good! Also, matty you're on too.. Less buck tags is definitely the TRUE answer here (along with doing away with EAB& late season anlerless deer hunts)!! I don't think seasons should be shortened bc I personally know how hard it is to get out there if you are busy! Also, I think that since EAB would be gone than maybe something should be done to encourage hunters to shoot DOES! And I mean DOES, ""FEMALE DEER""?? (&BUTTON BUCKS/small spikes shouldn't COUNT).. like maybe every doe counts toward money off that trophy QBT... or maybe off the particular weapon of choice hunting permit??
Also I personally don't think license sales would decline just because hunters would be limited to 4, 3, or even 2bucks/year! Especially with something like an optional extra QBT (Quality Buck Tag)! They are still hunters are they not? I personally don't know anyone that is a true hunter that would give it up becuase he could only shoot a few bucks/year! Thats ridiculous! The one that would give it up is not someone that truly loves hunting... Also they would be missing out on some mighty fine buck hunting! Also with what STEALTHY BOWMAN said, I AGREE.. Non resident sales would eventually increase too because the quality of bucks would DEFINITELY increase after a few years! Keeping in mind for those who said it used to be better in the Old days, maybe it was... I never saw them. But I say it will get better in a couple years and KEEP on getting better, but with wildlife management changes, you just have to remember it takes a couple years to see results from changes in wildlife management regulations, and the only way to make the buck hunting better now is to limit the amount of bucks taken, particularly button bucks and FOCUS on Quality Deer Management! QDM
Alright, I think I said enough. Hope I didn't offend anyone because I was basically just agreeing with alot of different people. Just parts of everyone's ideas. I never even got on the topic of how there are certain municipalities who are I believe half brained or slow! and DON'T allow hunting and would rather PAY sharpshooter or companies to NET and BOLT deer.. (btw I see this first hand bc i work in a town like this& see the deer problems everyday!) That's where alot of the problems I believe come from... because those areas are very under-hunted and over populated and because of that it gives unrealistic deer herd numbers in surrounding areas causing those to be over hunted and managed... Alright, seriously I'll shut up.. __________________ Born to fight, trained to kill
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| Posted: 06 May 2008 12:13 PM | ||
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AR was one of the worst things that state ever did. The yahoo's are still shooting the young one's they just aren't checking them in. Thus the red in deer harvest despite earn a buck. Look at the numbers. Only thing it's done is create more spikes. __________________ EAT SLEEP HUNT Make your dreams a reality. Take a kid hunting. Film your next hunt. www.nloutdoors.com
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| Posted: 06 May 2008 12:52 PM Last Edited By: Stealthy_Bowman | ||
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Here we are more than two years later from when this thread was created and the state has still done NOTHING to achieve what most hunters want. Now more than ever before hunters want quality deer management, yet the state only continues to liberalize regulations.
Make this a ONE buck state. Since the state will still want their buck tag revenue add an additional quality buck tag (8 points or better) and charge $84 for it. The $84 cost will offset the current $28x3 cost for bow/shotgun/muzzleloader buck tags. A simple change like this would have a profound effect on the quality of bucks hunters see in NJ. |
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