FID card and permit denial

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The disorderly persons offense would not have been enough to preclude me from licensing had I disclosed it.

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So you lied on the application? Good luck on the expungement$$$$$$

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Do you mind stating what the charge was? If not, I understand. It was the police that told you that the charge itself would not have caused your denial? I am just curious in what things they let slide when considering an application.

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I guess I didn't realize the potential 'gravity' of a misdemeanor.

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SH!T HAPPENS !
I think by the way things have gone with expungments for others on here, you should be alright and have your right restored with in the year depending on how fast you move Good Luck
__________________

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"The disorderly persons offense would not have been enough to preclude me from licensing had I disclosed it."

- I am assuming this was not related to a domestic violence conviction, b/c you said it would not be disqualifying.

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Get the thing expunged, then reapply disclosing the prior denial.

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Get the thing expunged, then reapply disclosing the prior denial.

You have no need to do this

Even Nappan would tell you there is no need to tell them about the prior denial

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Sorry, I just realized my first post was incorrect. It was a disorderly persons conviction, not just a charge.

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I know I just requested my personal records from the state and they were all screwed up.

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1) On the application I completed for my ID card, it specifically asked if I was denied in the past.

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I handled my own expungement. I started by going to my local PD, having my fingerprints done, and sending them myself to the NJ State Police - State Bureau of Investigation to get my official Criminal Record. On that criminal record, was my previous ID card denial.

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So now you've lied TWICE???!

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You don't have to mention it because the records where EXPUNGED, so there is no record of the reason there for there is no reason , ask a lawyer they will tell no need to mention the pier denial after a expungement because the offence that caused the denial is no longer in the records.
You’ll only open yourself up to extra scrutiny and a possible denial or at best slow up the processing and maybe even cause yourself to have to wait for a approval letter in the mail "every time" you go to by a firearm at a dealer. based on a denial that was based on a record that no long exists.

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BTW .... expunged offenses are still on your record. When an expungement is granted, law enforcement agencies are required by law to keep that person’s records private from schools, jobs, etc.

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I have already started the expungement process using this link.

http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/prose/10557.pdf

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They are removed from local & state records but still show up on some Federal agencies.

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What is an expungement, exactly?
Can I expunge my criminal record in New Jersey?
Will expunged records show up when I apply for a job?
Must I use one of the expungement lawyers in New Jersey?
Get straight answers to these questions, and more, right here.

Straight Answers to Thirty-four Frequently Asked Questions of Expungement Lawyers
in New Jersey
Basic Concepts
Benefits and Limitations
Eligibility
Cost
Procedure
Expungement Lawyers in New Jersey
Basic Concepts
Q1. What is an expungement?
A. When a person is arrested, that person gets a criminal record. At a minimum, there is a record of an arrest. If the person is later convicted, then the person has a record of both an arrest and a conviction. These records follow the person over the years. Prospective employers can access these records. Insurance companies, landlords, and prospective creditors can too. To expunge a criminal record means to go through a court process. Upon successful completion of that process, persons doing a background check through New Jersey State Police or through the FBI will receive a response that there is "no record." Additionally, after you expunge your criminal record, you are legally entitled to state that the arrest or conviction never happened.

Q2. Is an expungement the same as a pardon?
A. No. To expunge a criminal record and to get a pardon are two completely separate things. When an expungement is granted, the person whose record is expunged may, for most purposes, treat the event as if it never occurred. A pardon (also called “executive clemency”), on the other hand, does not “erase” the event. Rather, it constitutes forgiveness. An expungement can be granted only by a judge. A pardon can be granted only by the governor.

Q3. What is the difference between obtaining an expungement of records, and obtaining an expunction of records?
A. There is no difference. Those are just different terms for the same thing.

Benefits and Limitations
Q4. Are expunged criminal records actually destroyed?
A. Expunged records are not destroyed. Rather, they are segregated. That is, they are moved to a special location for expunged records. When an ordinary record search is made, records kept in this special location are not accessed. Thus the results of this ordinary search will be a return of “NO RECORD.”

Q5. Why are expunged records not destroyed?
A. The New Jersey expungement statutes contain provisions under which expungements are not effective. These provisions include situations where a person is applying for employment with a law enforcement agency. Or where a person is applying for employment in the judicial branch of government. Or where a person is seeking a conditional discharge after having had a dismissal from a previous conditional discharge expunged. Or on sentencing for convictions for new offenses following the expungement. So records stored in these special locations are consulted in those situations.

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Q13. My convictions were expunged. Now I want to apply for a gun permit. Should I divulge those expunged matters on my firearms application?
A. No. In fact, questions on the official New Jersey Firearms Identification Card Application Form relating to past criminal convictions or arrests specifically exclude records that have been expunged or sealed. Your New Jersey expungement will also remove any federal firearms disability that arose on account of the New Jersey conviction. This follows from Title 18, Section 921(a)(20) of the United States Code. That provision states: "Any conviction which has been expunged...shall not be considered a conviction for purposes of this chapter, unless such...expungement...expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms."

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Please do not spam my thread.

Posted: 05 Aug 2008 8:53 AM
	Registered User Currently Offline	Posts: 5 Fawn: Join Date: Aug 2008
Greetings- I posted this on another NJ 2A board, just wanted to share the experience here as well. I was recently denied my FID and pistol permits by the Parsippany Police for failing to disclose a 10 yr old disorderly persons/misdemeanor charge. The denial letter cited that, and a public health and safety concern. The disorderly persons offense would not have been enough to preclude me from licensing had I disclosed it. Its omission was not willful. However the dept processed my application fairly quickly and the patrolman that was assigned to it was very helpful, suggesting an expungement before re applying. I did not want to bother with appealing the decision with the blemish still on my record. I am in the process of expunging my record now and will let the board know how the re application goes, as I will have to answer affirmative to the 'prior denial' question on the form. Thanks.

Posted: 05 Aug 2008 9:03 AM
	Warden, Sponsor	Posts: 4432 Monster Buck: Join Date: Feb 2005
So you lied on the application? Good luck on the expungement$$$$$$ __________________ ´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸ ><((((((º>

Posted: 05 Aug 2008 9:10 AM Last Edited By: Blackduck1
	Registered User, Sponsor	Posts: 851 Typical: Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote: The disorderly persons offense would not have been enough to preclude me from licensing had I disclosed it. Do you mind stating what the charge was? If not, I understand. It was the police that told you that the charge itself would not have caused your denial? I am just curious in what things they let slide when considering an application. (BTW, I did my own expungement without a lawyer and it went without a hitch, saving a bunch of money ... all through the mail) Good luck. I had to put "prior denial" on mine. Let us know how it all turns out. __________________ We, The People, are all first responders. We are also the first victims. Demand reasonable CCW laws from Trenton.

Posted: 05 Aug 2008 9:49 AM Last Edited By: Francis Castiglione
	Registered User Currently Offline	Posts: 5 Fawn: Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote: So you lied on the application? Good luck on the expungement$$$$$$ No lie, ignorant omission. I have passed identical background checks for a professional license I hold. I just assumed there was nothing on my record at all. I guess I didn't realize the potential 'gravity' of a misdemeanor. Quote: Do you mind stating what the charge was? If not, I understand. It was the police that told you that the charge itself would not have caused your denial? I am just curious in what things they let slide when considering an application. The statute itself says the only disorderly offenses that would be automatic denial are ones involving domestic violence. The interviewing officer also stated something to that effect. I plan on doing my expungement myself, as I was quoted around 800-1000 depending on the attorney I spoke to. Again, for informational purposes I will advise the board of the outcome.

Posted: 05 Aug 2008 10:02 AM
	Warden, Sponsor	Posts: 4432 Monster Buck: Join Date: Feb 2005
Quote: I guess I didn't realize the potential 'gravity' of a misdemeanor. They tend to go "way" back.. Let us know.. __________________ ´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸ ><((((((º>

Posted: 05 Aug 2008 10:17 AM Last Edited By: Drop Tine
	Registered User, Sponsor	Posts: 12985 Addicted to NJH: Join Date: Jan 2006
SH!T HAPPENS ! I think by the way things have gone with expungments for others on here, you should be alright and have your right restored with in the year depending on how fast you move Good Luck __________________ Pete's Archery Service & NJH.com ProStaff ProFile PETE'S ARCHERY SERVICE Bows repaired & tuned Custom arrows / Custom string & cables New Bows Sold and set up Call Today 201-953-6625 Committed to a Total MEATetarian Lifestyle

Posted: 05 Aug 2008 11:23 AM
	Registered User Currently Offline	Posts: 1864 Non Typical: Join Date: Aug 2007
were you arrested? detained? I know I just requested my personal records from the state and they were all screwed up. They had aliasis, etc.. I went to the municipalities and got notarized letters and have to send them to the state of NJ. PA no problems what so ever. The disorderly charge would depend on municiple or criminal i think. i have the link to go over your record i will post it when i get home. Always good to go over records or what the state thinks they have. I haven't been in trouble, but just wanted to check records for employment and see what the state had because i was notified of the alias and my license was off by one number at the DMV. the dmv asked me to come in and verify my DL when I lived in NJ in early 2006 __________________ "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244)

Posted: 05 Aug 2008 11:41 AM
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Quote: SH!T HAPPENS ! I think by the way things have gone with expungments for others on here, you should be alright and have your right restored with in the year depending on how fast you move Good Luck __________________ Total of 2 months when I did it myself. Your case will be heard between 35 and 60 days after you petition the court. __________________ We, The People, are all first responders. We are also the first victims. Demand reasonable CCW laws from Trenton.

Posted: 05 Aug 2008 10:00 PM
	Registered User Currently Offline	Posts: 48 Fawn: Join Date: Nov 2007
"The disorderly persons offense would not have been enough to preclude me from licensing had I disclosed it." - I am assuming this was not related to a domestic violence conviction, b/c you said it would not be disqualifying. - What was the charge, and did it result in a conviction or guilty plea, or was it a charge that was later dismissed?

Posted: 05 Aug 2008 10:26 PM
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Good luck with that. Only in NJ.... __________________ EAT SLEEP HUNT Make your dreams a reality. Take a kid hunting. Film your next hunt. www.nloutdoors.com

Posted: 05 Aug 2008 10:48 PM
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Call Nappen __________________ "from my cold dead hands" "to all those in harms way, SEMPER FI"

Posted: 06 Aug 2008 6:29 AM
	Registered User Currently Offline	Posts: 5 Fawn: Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote: "The disorderly persons offense would not have been enough to preclude me from licensing had I disclosed it." - I am assuming this was not related to a domestic violence conviction, b/c you said it would not be disqualifying. Sorry, I just realized my first post was incorrect. It was a disorderly persons conviction, not just a charge.

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 6:11 PM
	Registered User Currently Offline	Posts: 48 Fawn: Join Date: Nov 2007
If you meet the legal requirements, you should apply for an expungement order. If you do a search, there is a pro se package available for free download from the NJ court site. Get the thing expunged, then reapply disclosing the prior denial. YMMV, but if it was me, Id download the papers for expungement, see if I understood it, go pay Nappan for an hour consult for legal advice (prior to filing the expungement), and then proceed from that point based on his counsel.

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 6:14 PM Last Edited By: Drop Tine
	Registered User, Sponsor	Posts: 12985 Addicted to NJH: Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote: Get the thing expunged, then reapply disclosing the prior denial. You have no need to do this Even Nappan would tell you there is no need to tell them about the prior denial __________________ Pete's Archery Service & NJH.com ProStaff ProFile PETE'S ARCHERY SERVICE Bows repaired & tuned Custom arrows / Custom string & cables New Bows Sold and set up Call Today 201-953-6625 Committed to a Total MEATetarian Lifestyle

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 6:19 PM
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I had a disorderly persons in the '70's. I put it on the application there was no problem __________________ Gun control is being able to hit your target MOLON LABE WWRD Member: NRA,ANJRPC,UBNJ,SFFC,DU

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 11:50 PM
	Registered User, Sponsor Currently Offline	Posts: 679 Typical: Join Date: Oct 2006
Quote: Please do not spam my thread. WELL THEN EXCUSE ME. I did not realize that when you joined on TUESDAY evening that the site had taken a somber turn Look (according to your bio) you just joined this place, so you probably are not familiar with the sarcasm many of this group use to bring a little levity to a lousy situation. However, any sarcasm on this thread has been followed by wishes of good luck and support for you. I realize that this is a very serious subject for you. There was no intent to spam your thread. Most here, including myself, recognize the absurdity of the system and feel for anyone who is slighted by it. __________________ NJOA TU "I want as game protectors men of courage, resolution and hardihood who can handle the rifle, axe and paddle; who can camp out in summer or winter; who can go on snowshoes, if necessary; who can go through the woods by day or by night without regard to trails." -Teddy Roosevelt

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 6:44 PM
	Registered User Currently Offline	Posts: 1864 Non Typical: Join Date: Aug 2007
I think there are two disordily charges... one is municiple.. i think? __________________ "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244)

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 6:47 PM Last Edited By: Blackduck1
	Registered User, Sponsor	Posts: 851 Typical: Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote: Quote: Get the thing expunged, then reapply disclosing the prior denial. You have no need to do this Even Nappan would tell you there is no need to tell them about the prior denial Really? Two things ... 1) On the application I completed for my ID card, it specifically asked if I was denied in the past. 2) I handled my own expungement. I started by going to my local PD, having my fingerprints done, and sending them myself to the NJ State Police - State Bureau of Investigation to get my official Criminal Record. On that criminal record, was my previous ID card denial. Thats how it was for me, anyway. __________________ We, The People, are all first responders. We are also the first victims. Demand reasonable CCW laws from Trenton.

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 7:19 PM
	Registered User, Sponsor Currently Offline	Posts: 679 Typical: Join Date: Oct 2006
Quote: Sorry, I just realized my first post was incorrect. It was a disorderly persons conviction, not just a charge. So now you've lied TWICE???! Good luck...hope everything flies by quick for you! __________________ NJOA TU "I want as game protectors men of courage, resolution and hardihood who can handle the rifle, axe and paddle; who can camp out in summer or winter; who can go on snowshoes, if necessary; who can go through the woods by day or by night without regard to trails." -Teddy Roosevelt

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 7:20 PM
	Registered User, Sponsor	Posts: 3585 Monster Buck: Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote: I know I just requested my personal records from the state and they were all screwed up. How did you do this?

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 7:54 PM Last Edited By: Drop Tine
	Registered User, Sponsor	Posts: 12985 Addicted to NJH: Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote: 1) On the application I completed for my ID card, it specifically asked if I was denied in the past. Quote: I handled my own expungement. I started by going to my local PD, having my fingerprints done, and sending them myself to the NJ State Police - State Bureau of Investigation to get my official Criminal Record. On that criminal record, was my previous ID card denial. You don't have to mention it because the records where EXPUNGED, so there is no record of the reason there for there is no reason , ask a lawyer they will tell no need to mention the pier denial after a expungement because the offence that caused the denial is no longer in the records. You’ll only open yourself up to extra scrutiny and a possible denial or at best slow up the processing and maybe even cause yourself to have to wait for a approval letter in the mail "every time" you go to by a firearm at a dealer. based on a denial that was based on a record that no long exists. But hey don’t take my word for it ask Nappen they will tell you just apply like you are for the first time with no record __________________ Pete's Archery Service & NJH.com ProStaff ProFile PETE'S ARCHERY SERVICE Bows repaired & tuned Custom arrows / Custom string & cables New Bows Sold and set up Call Today 201-953-6625 Committed to a Total MEATetarian Lifestyle

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 8:37 PM
	Registered User Currently Offline	Posts: 5 Fawn: Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote: So now you've lied TWICE???! No, what I did there was willingly clarify my previous post for the benefit of all who may come across this thread and benefit from my experience. Please do not spam my thread. As far as everyone else, there is a question on the application that specifically asks if you have been previously denied the FID. You have to answer affirmatively, regardless of expungement. This answer comes direct from a consultation with a respected 2A friendly attorney. I have already started the expungement process using this link. http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/prose/10557.pdf Again, I will advise the board the outcome for reference purposes.

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 10:49 PM
	Registered User, Sponsor	Posts: 851 Typical: Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote: You don't have to mention it because the records where EXPUNGED, so there is no record of the reason there for there is no reason , ask a lawyer they will tell no need to mention the pier denial after a expungement because the offence that caused the denial is no longer in the records. You’ll only open yourself up to extra scrutiny and a possible denial or at best slow up the processing and maybe even cause yourself to have to wait for a approval letter in the mail "every time" you go to by a firearm at a dealer. based on a denial that was based on a record that no long exists. Maybe we are talking about two different things here. I am not talking about buying a gun at the gun shop. I am talking about applying for a NJFPID. That is what the poster "Bobsmail" was talking about. On the NJFPID application, you must state that you were denied one in the past. The Certificate of Eligibility (completed each time you purchase a firearm) does not ask this question. BTW .... expunged offenses are still on your record. When an expungement is granted, law enforcement agencies are required by law to keep that person’s records private from schools, jobs, etc. __________________ We, The People, are all first responders. We are also the first victims. Demand reasonable CCW laws from Trenton.

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 10:58 PM
	Registered User, Sponsor	Posts: 3585 Monster Buck: Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote: BTW .... expunged offenses are still on your record. When an expungement is granted, law enforcement agencies are required by law to keep that person’s records private from schools, jobs, etc. They are removed from local & state records but still show up on some Federal agencies.

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 11:01 PM Last Edited By: Blackduck1
	Registered User, Sponsor	Posts: 851 Typical: Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote: I have already started the expungement process using this link. http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/prose/10557.pdf Francis ... if you read in your link, the NJ Judiciary gives an acknowledgement to Legal Services of NJ. They actually wrote the guide. I believe your link goes back to 2006, the Legal Services of NJ website has the guide updated as of July 2008 (though it has a 2007 copyright). Maybe there are some minor updates. Here is their link .... http://www.lsnjlaw.org/english/courts/statecourts/municipal/cyr/i ... I even ordered the little booklet from them with the forms in it for $12 I think. It had all the correct terminology for the forms, and I thought they deserved the $12 for saving me the hundreds/thousands. Of course, as you may already know, filling out the forms is not rocket science. Good luck. How far along are you in the process? __________________ We, The People, are all first responders. We are also the first victims. Demand reasonable CCW laws from Trenton.

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 11:02 PM
	Registered User, Sponsor	Posts: 851 Typical: Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote: They are removed from local & state records but still show up on some Federal agencies. Where are you getting this information from. They are NOT removed from state records... they are sealed for certain purposes. __________________ We, The People, are all first responders. We are also the first victims. Demand reasonable CCW laws from Trenton.

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 11:14 PM
	Registered User, Sponsor	Posts: 3585 Monster Buck: Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote: What is an expungement, exactly? Can I expunge my criminal record in New Jersey? Will expunged records show up when I apply for a job? Must I use one of the expungement lawyers in New Jersey? Get straight answers to these questions, and more, right here. Straight Answers to Thirty-four Frequently Asked Questions of Expungement Lawyers in New Jersey Basic Concepts Benefits and Limitations Eligibility Cost Procedure Expungement Lawyers in New Jersey Basic Concepts Q1. What is an expungement? A. When a person is arrested, that person gets a criminal record. At a minimum, there is a record of an arrest. If the person is later convicted, then the person has a record of both an arrest and a conviction. These records follow the person over the years. Prospective employers can access these records. Insurance companies, landlords, and prospective creditors can too. To expunge a criminal record means to go through a court process. Upon successful completion of that process, persons doing a background check through New Jersey State Police or through the FBI will receive a response that there is "no record." Additionally, after you expunge your criminal record, you are legally entitled to state that the arrest or conviction never happened. Q2. Is an expungement the same as a pardon? A. No. To expunge a criminal record and to get a pardon are two completely separate things. When an expungement is granted, the person whose record is expunged may, for most purposes, treat the event as if it never occurred. A pardon (also called “executive clemency”), on the other hand, does not “erase” the event. Rather, it constitutes forgiveness. An expungement can be granted only by a judge. A pardon can be granted only by the governor. Q3. What is the difference between obtaining an expungement of records, and obtaining an expunction of records? A. There is no difference. Those are just different terms for the same thing. Benefits and Limitations Q4. Are expunged criminal records actually destroyed? A. Expunged records are not destroyed. Rather, they are segregated. That is, they are moved to a special location for expunged records. When an ordinary record search is made, records kept in this special location are not accessed. Thus the results of this ordinary search will be a return of “NO RECORD.” Q5. Why are expunged records not destroyed? A. The New Jersey expungement statutes contain provisions under which expungements are not effective. These provisions include situations where a person is applying for employment with a law enforcement agency. Or where a person is applying for employment in the judicial branch of government. Or where a person is seeking a conditional discharge after having had a dismissal from a previous conditional discharge expunged. Or on sentencing for convictions for new offenses following the expungement. So records stored in these special locations are consulted in those situations.

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 11:19 PM
	Registered User, Sponsor	Posts: 3585 Monster Buck: Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote: Q13. My convictions were expunged. Now I want to apply for a gun permit. Should I divulge those expunged matters on my firearms application? A. No. In fact, questions on the official New Jersey Firearms Identification Card Application Form relating to past criminal convictions or arrests specifically exclude records that have been expunged or sealed. Your New Jersey expungement will also remove any federal firearms disability that arose on account of the New Jersey conviction. This follows from Title 18, Section 921(a)(20) of the United States Code. That provision states: "Any conviction which has been expunged...shall not be considered a conviction for purposes of this chapter, unless such...expungement...expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms."

Posted: 07 Aug 2008 11:35 PM
	Registered User, Sponsor	Posts: 851 Typical: Join Date: Feb 2008
We were talking about indicating on the form that you were previosly denied a NJFPID ... question #19 on the application ( http://www.njsp.org/info/pdf/firearms/sts-033.pdf ). Disclosing previous denial of a NJFPID card, not exponged offenses Questions 17 and 18 clearly state that exponged offenses are not disclosed on the application. However, after you've had your offenses exponged, and you do not list any offenses on the application, you still need to disclose that you were previosly denied a NJFPID card. Your link agreed with me that the records are not destroyed on any level. __________________ We, The People, are all first responders. We are also the first victims. Demand reasonable CCW laws from Trenton.