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| Posted: 17 Nov 2005 9:53 AM | ||
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Statewide APR,limit the buck take and reduce some of the Jan/Feb slaugher. Enough said as we pay plenty for the priviledge to hunt Jersey. __________________ NRA Life Member
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2005 10:38 AM | ||
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Statewide APR,limit the buck take and reduce some of the Jan/Feb slaugher. Enough said as we pay plenty for the priviledge to hunt Jersey. I agree, but is it fair to hunters looking for any buck as their trophy? I thought this up for two reasons. A) Because I cant afford to lease private properties that I can manage properly with my brothers. So I would like a WMA in my area that is managed closely for quality deer. I know Im not alone, as Ive heard many other hunters say the same thing. It would certainly make passing young bucks a lot easier to swallow. Knowing they cant be harvested tomorrow by someone who doesnt care about the size of antlers. B) The second reason is because I want to be fair to those hunters who dont want to wait out a mature buck, and who are happy with a smaller 1.5-2.5 year old buck. I dont want to impose restrictions on them. I want hunting to be fun for them too. I guess what it really comes down to is, you cant manage hundreds of different properties under a few different management plans. Each property is unique in the amount of deer it needs harvested on a yearly basis, and the land management needs are unique as well, along with predator harvest quotas, and nutritional needs. BUT, to do it the right way with specific management plans for individual properties cost too much. So where does that leave us? I guess right where we are at. I have to say too....We cant have two types of hunting happening on the same properties. Trophy hunting is worthless if you are sharing the woods with hunters taking all the young bucks you pass. And meat hunting is a lot more difficult with antler restrictions, and harvest quotas. So I guess only one side can be happy at a time. On public lands the meat hunters are the ones who are happy right now, because I know I dont enjoy passing a young 4 or 6 pointer, only to watch him drive down the road in the back of someone elses truck bed. Thats downright discouraging. As far as how much we pay, I think it sucks too, but nothing is free, and if we want a quality experience, we need to foot the bill. If we arent happy with the way the money is being spent, we need to speak up. __________________ "Only in dictionaries does SUCCESS come before WORK." -Alfred K. Henderson
"Nature's law of tooth and claw are far crueler than any death I could ever bestow" -Fred Bear Will probably never kill a huge buck- PRO-STAFF |
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2005 12:38 PM | ||
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I think your reference to charging $10 for the opportunity to hunt these bigger bucks is way off base. This is not way off base in surrounding states. I dont get any buck tags with my license. If I want to shoot a buck with anything bigger than 3 inch spikes, its $10 for the tag. $10 more dollar is I want the opportunity to shoot a second 'quaility' buck. But, we dont have to deal with all the permit cost you guys do. If it werent for the fact you all pay through the nose already, i'd say it was a good idea. __________________ "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." - John Quincy Adams
Fighting Neo Conservatives and Socialists since 2007 |
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2005 12:45 PM | ||
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Quote: Now if QDM is to be done then age should be a factor.If you say 1 1/2 -2 1/2 year old deer can be taken, Your droping the Quality for the deer herd.
B) The second reason is because I want to be fair to those hunters who dont want to wait out a mature buck, and who are happy with a smaller 1.5-2.5 year old buck. I dont want to impose restrictions on them. I want hunting to be fun for them too. Quote: Thats where APR comes in... Have a statewide APR 3 or 4 points on oneside and have a trophy zone where you can only take a 9 pointer or better.
So I guess only one side can be happy at a time. On public lands the meat hunters are the ones who are happy right now, because I know I dont enjoy passing a young 4 or 6 pointer, only to watch him drive down the road in the back of someone elses truck bed. Thats downright discouraging. Turn shotgun & muzzleloader season to be DOE's only. 6-day you can still take 2 Bucks ( but only one antlered deer from a Trophy zone ) Winter Bow only 1 buck from any zone, DOE should be numbered to 5 for the year. Start statewide Fall bow on the second to last Saturday in Sept, NO bucks till the First SAturday in OCT, then 1 Buck. __________________ Quote: Hunting is My Heart & Soul, Without it. I'm just a empty shell. |
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2005 12:48 PM | ||
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But, we dont have to deal with all the permit cost you guys do. If it werent for the fact you all pay through the nose already, i'd say it was a good idea. Duckmastor, That's exactly my point. Let's just say that you hunt with bow and shotgun, and you do both in 2 zones. The cost to do so would be $27.50 (shotgun license) + $31.50 (Bow license) + $28 x 4 (for permits) = $171. Mind you, this doesn't include waterfowl or pheasant hunting. Those cost extra. Maybe it's me, but that's alot of dough. David __________________ NJ... Where fun comes to die!
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2005 12:51 PM | ||
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I'll make it simple for everyone: statewide AR except for kids and active military. __________________ http://www.kriskrause.com
The List - http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html The Lies of Tet - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120226056767646059.html |
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2005 1:06 PM | ||
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Now if QDM is to be done then age should be a factor.If you say 1 1/2 -2 1/2 year old deer can be taken, Your droping the Quality for the deer herd. They would NOT be allowed to be taken in the QDM-WMA's. I meant they can take those deer on all the other WMA's. The QDM-WMA's would be managed specific to each WMA within the guidelines of normal QDM. Anyway, I cant discuss it anymore, Im going to see if I can use my buck stub. Wish me luck, God knows I need it.  __________________ "Only in dictionaries does SUCCESS come before WORK." -Alfred K. Henderson
"Nature's law of tooth and claw are far crueler than any death I could ever bestow" -Fred Bear Will probably never kill a huge buck- PRO-STAFF |
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2005 1:35 PM | ||
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That's exactly my point. Let's just say that you hunt with bow and shotgun, and you do both in 2 zones. The cost to do so would be $27.50 (shotgun license) + $31.50 (Bow license) + $28 x 4 (for permits) = $171. Mind you, this doesn't include waterfowl or pheasant hunting. Those cost extra. Maybe it's me, but that's alot of dough. well I hunt Bow and Shotgun Licenses 27.50 firearm 31.50 bow 28.oo bow permit 28.oo shotgun permit 1st zone 28.oo shotgun permit 2nd zone 40.00 pheasant stamp Wife 27.50 firearm 40.00 pheasant stamp Son for now youth license but needs 28.oo shotgun permit $278.50 in licenses to go up 67.50 when youth expires Oh Wait now there's Trout Fishing. 
I don't mind the AR as long as they do away with the EAB. And don't charge for not being able to shoot smaller bucks. That does nothing for my freezer or wallet. I think I'm limited enough where I hunt on, what I can and cannot shoot. The way I look at it is, Can I afford to shoot that 10 pt.er Cause he must get mounted. I'll find a way.  __________________ The 4 seasons - Almost Summer, Summer, Still Summer and Hunting Season
"My hunting rifle is safe from confiscation only while my battle rifle protects it." ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ jerseyhunter@NewJerseyHunter.com |
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2005 9:58 PM | ||
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This is not way off base in surrounding states Check the wage rates and the davis bacon act applicability in other states, nj is a prevailing wage on public work state, and we generally have 20-30% higher wages, and I'm not even getting into the union wages. I don't think $10 would cover spreading the seed for the food plots let alone everything else. Don't get me wrong, that is a great idea but not cost effective. If it was that cheap, there would be tons of privately managed and guided lands in NJ. There aren't because it just costs too much money here. Statewide AR are great for QDM but what does it do to DM in general. With the projected deer population harvest rates in NJ, the state can not project to cut the population down by the number NJ wants and oppose statewide AR its just not going to happen. They calculate harvest rates by ratios on statistics of the number of the herd the habitat can support. Being a small state we don't have enough land to support a deer management ratio where QDM can take place. Unless a major disease wiped out alot more than the projected number of deer harvested by scientists they can not support AR in NJ. |
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2005 10:04 PM | ||
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Quote: O but we can. QDM can work with taking more DOEs and APR. It worked in Iowa & Ill, and in TEXAS in the hunting ranches. It just needs to be something that has to be running for 3 to 4 years first.Being a small state we don't have enough land to support a deer management ratio where QDM can take place. __________________ Quote: Hunting is My Heart & Soul, Without it. I'm just a empty shell. |
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2005 10:05 PM | ||
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You have to remember NJ manages its deer not for a trophy buck population but to keep the population at a manageable level supported by the habitat.
I'm sure the state does a study on the ages of deer in NJ. If I were a gambling man, I'd gamble that most of the harvested bucks are in the age the proposed QDM and AR plans would make you p [no swearing please] on. What would happen to our habitat the first year these restrictions are enforced? The same thing that happened this year due to the bear hunting being cancelled last year. |
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2005 10:07 PM | ||
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O but we can. QDM can work with taking more DOEs and APR. It worked in Iowa & Ill, and in TEXAS in the hunting ranches. It just needs to be something that has to be running for 3 to 4 years first. Right but what happens during the 3-4 years it takes place in NJ? We would be restricting people from harvesting the biggest population group? Hunting is supposed to be a tool for everyone to control the wildlife. I know we would love for things to revolve around us but I'm sure the insurance industry would not be happy the year after these restrictions are imposed. |
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2005 10:57 PM | ||
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NJ has focused on managment of the US Dollar. If they cared about the deer herd wouldnt they do something about the serious poaching problem that they totally ignore????? The deer herd is secondary to the US Dollar! That is why they have all these permits etc...ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. __________________ "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." Samual Adams
Proud Member of NRA, ANJRPC, B.A.S.S., Muskie Inc., NO Staff; The White Oaks Hunting Club |
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| Posted: 18 Nov 2005 5:27 AM | ||
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Quote: I know, this is only talking about a new QDM in NJ. I know the insurance co. would hate us for that, but that would the best thing for our deer herds in NJ.Hunting is supposed to be a tool for everyone to control the wildlife. I know we would love for things to revolve around us but I'm sure the insurance industry would not be happy the year after these restrictions are imposed. __________________ Quote: Hunting is My Heart & Soul, Without it. I'm just a empty shell. |
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| Posted: 18 Nov 2005 7:44 AM | ||
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but I'm sure the insurance industry would not be happy the year after these restrictions are imposed. It's funny you should mention the insurance companies. I've heard stories where auto insurance companies have actually bought animals like coyotes and released them into the wild to reduce the deer herd. The intent was to increase the # of predators to deer and as a result, by thinning out the herd it would reduce the # of accident claims as a result of deer. David __________________ NJ... Where fun comes to die!
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| Posted: 18 Nov 2005 9:04 AM | ||
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I know, this is only talking about a new QDM in NJ. I know the insurance co. would hate us for that, but that would the best thing for our deer herds in NJ. Best thing for the deer herds from our point of view. The insurance industry would love for the herd to be reduced more than it already is. From their point they would want no restrictions at all. Unfortunately the management plan has to take all this info and find the happy median. Quote:
It's funny you should mention the insurance companies. I've heard stories where auto insurance companies have actually bought animals like coyotes and released them into the wild to reduce the deer herd. The intent was to increase the # of predators to deer and as a result, by thinning out the herd it would reduce the # of accident claims as a result of deer. Everytime someone with comprehensive auto insurance hits a deer, it raises the loss payables part of the equation. If the amount of deer collision calculated is less than what the pay for the year it results in higher risk amounts for the next years to come. Which only results in everyone owning a car sharing the risk. In other words higher premiums. |
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| Posted: 18 Nov 2005 9:22 AM | ||
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Let me preface this with the following;
While I am not a deer biologist, and I hold no degree in wildlife biology I have helped to manage a property before with my brother and another hunter who did have training in this field, and the results were tremendous. My brother is the one with a more exact understanding of the numbers game Im about to play out below. I know many of you think Im a DI(K Head or an A!!HO@# and a "know it all", but Im not trying to be one. It upsets me that I come across that way. Im simply explaining what I know about this stuff. Many people dont really have a good understanding of what proper herd management is. Even I dont claim to know very much, I basically re-itterate what Ive read over the years from experts and learned from others. I can say I KNOW it works though. That being said, I think some of you are misunderstanding what proper herd levels would most likely be under a strict qdm policy. The insurance companies would probably love us. When you closely manage a property for quality deer, the actual deer density is lowered considerably. You actually want it below the carrying capacity of the land. This would be done through an extensive harvesting of does. You could even do away with the antler restrictions if you put a limit on the amount of bucks harvested on the property. Lets say we have a property we are going to manage. Our first manner of business is to assess the forest, the carrying capacity of the land, the population, and b:d ratio of the herd. We find our land can carry 65 deer. We find that we have 100 deer on the property. So now we have to get an estimate on the buck to doe ratio along with the age structure of the herd. Lets say we have 10 anltered bucks on the property leaving you with NINETY does. (I wouldnt doubt some properties are at that b:d ratio or worse) One of the bucks is mature (3.5 or older) the rest are immature (1.5-2.5). We know we need to harvest at least 35 deer to get our land to carrying capacity. So we decide upon a harvest goal for the first year of 32 does and 3 bucks. (This is the year to remove bucks you think may be geneticlly inferior) (This harvest goal is simply an initial assessment. More does will need to be taken, and you can actually do away with the buck harvest if you feel it necessary) We have allowed Seven bucks to reach the next age class. Now approx. one to three of those seven will most likely die of natural causes, predatation, cars, etc. That leaves you with 4-6 bucks left in that area. Now we would probably want to manage the herd to be 2 or 3 does to every buck. 1:1 is not typical even in unhunted herds. If you want 1:1 you just need to harvest more does. Now you are at the carrying capacity of your land, and you have 4-6 bucks and about 58 does. A buck to doe ratio of about 1B:9D. Depending upon your goals, you can decide to wait till next year to bring the B ratio closer, or you can bring the B ratio closer this year.
If you choose to do it this year, only take a certain percentage of the does. You dont want to bring the doe herd down too quickly, take 25-50% of the does needed to reach 3:1 this year. Then the following year bring it even closer into balance with more doe harvests. Every year you will see an increase in the amount of mature bucks (up until the plateu or maintenance stage) By the third year you should be able to get the doe population where it needs to be around 1B:2-3D. After the third year you will reach a maintenance harvest. In other words, When you reach your B ratio goal, you will plateu with the number of bucks and does you can kill every year.
(I would still recommend monitoring the herd for the actual amount of bucks and does on an annual basis. You can do this through sightings, counting droppings on two seperate days, aerial surveys, spotlighting at night, etc.) So you see, QDM isnt about passing deer and filling the woods with them and it isnt about passing all the bucks. Its about lowering the deer densities considerably until they are at or preferably below the carrying capacity of the land. Its about a healthier deer herd that is BIGGER in body and antlers, its about a healthier forest where more animals can flourish. On a side note; Deer/Auto accidents will not rise in areas of QDM, they may become more fatal though, when those massive HEALTHY bucks and does jump out in front of a mini cooper.  __________________ "Only in dictionaries does SUCCESS come before WORK." -Alfred K. Henderson
"Nature's law of tooth and claw are far crueler than any death I could ever bestow" -Fred Bear Will probably never kill a huge buck- PRO-STAFF |
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| Posted: 18 Nov 2005 9:26 AM | ||
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Stupid gremlins...
Everywhere it says B means "Buck : Doe"
Sorry about that. __________________ "Only in dictionaries does SUCCESS come before WORK." -Alfred K. Henderson
"Nature's law of tooth and claw are far crueler than any death I could ever bestow" -Fred Bear Will probably never kill a huge buck- PRO-STAFF |
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| Posted: 18 Nov 2005 11:08 AM | ||
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Matty,
I agree with much of what you have to say in this thread, and in general. My question / problem is, in your above senario. If one chose only certain WMAs for "TDM" is there sound science on how many Mature bucks can be held per acre? My feelings is that in this state, as the bucks get a little bigger, they will get pushed out by the dominant buck. However, the smaller bucks will be "allowed" to stay as they are not a threat to the dominant. The result would be just as it is now, one or two mature bucks, deep in the thick, with many smaller bucks hanging around. Once these bigger, but not dominant bucks get pushed out of the "TDM" area, they will probably not last long, as they got to their age do to regulations, not the conditioning (smarts) that gets a buck to that size today. just a thought... Now do this state wide, and we may have something. -dan __________________ PLEASE DO NOT HUNT QUEBEC! NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE FOR THE 168 HUNTERS WHO WERE ROBBED OF THEIR MONEY AND THEIR DREAMS IN 2008
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| Posted: 18 Nov 2005 11:12 AM Last Edited By: Matty | ||
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Hmm, thats actually a great point I hadnt even considered Dan.
Now you have the wheels turning and theres smoke coming out of my ears. I hate when people make me think.   __________________ "Only in dictionaries does SUCCESS come before WORK." -Alfred K. Henderson
"Nature's law of tooth and claw are far crueler than any death I could ever bestow" -Fred Bear Will probably never kill a huge buck- PRO-STAFF |
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| Posted: 18 Nov 2005 11:15 AM | ||
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Thing is Matty, I know that some people can manage smaller tracts of land for great deer. However, my experience in NJ is, if there is a dominant buck around, all you ever see is scrubby 1.5 year olds, the other 2.5+s beat feet so they can have a shot where there are more does.
-dan __________________ PLEASE DO NOT HUNT QUEBEC! NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE FOR THE 168 HUNTERS WHO WERE ROBBED OF THEIR MONEY AND THEIR DREAMS IN 2008
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| Posted: 18 Nov 2005 11:19 AM | ||
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Now do this state wide, and we may have something. I agree. I thought think just certain WMA's would work. Too little area. Deer ranges are sometime bigger. I think the deer management zones would be fine. __________________ It isn't the catch or the kill that makes for a great outdoor experience but enjoying all that God has created for us.
Email me at birdmanmike@verizon.net instead of using PM's Official Hunt and Fish NJ Pro Staffer |
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| Posted: 18 Nov 2005 11:21 AM Last Edited By: Matty | ||
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Statewide would be best. (I should say "better", not best. Best would be individual management plans for each property that work in conjunction with neighboring properties)
When you manage a property you want at least 1 square mile of actual deer inhabitable land. Thats approx. 640 acres. I dont think too many of the WMAs around here are actually that big, so what you are saying would be a problem to an extent. Of course Im no expert, so I cant tell you how great the effects would be on dispersement of lesser dominant bucks, but I see what you are saying. And I agree, I forsee a problem with that now. Like you said, statewide would be best, but its tough to enforce such strict rules on people, and its tough to practice it with any degree of accuracy on a statewide basis. It needs to be property specific. I guess what it comes down to is; Trying to manage the lands individually is too costly and managing the whole state is too in-exact. __________________ "Only in dictionaries does SUCCESS come before WORK." -Alfred K. Henderson
"Nature's law of tooth and claw are far crueler than any death I could ever bestow" -Fred Bear Will probably never kill a huge buck- PRO-STAFF |
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| Posted: 06 Dec 2005 5:46 AM | ||
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| Why don't you guys join the QDMA the are a great organization if you need info send me an e-mail. I'm a member and we have a chapter in South Jersey. I myself will be getting more involved with them. | ||
| Posted: 27 Dec 2005 10:58 PM | ||
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I totally agree with the 3 points on one side or better rule... i'd even agree with 6 points or better total __________________ Member UBNJ
A true outdoorsman gives more to nature than he takes out! http://www.myspace.com/chiefybear |
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| Posted: 11 Jan 2006 7:45 AM | ||
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| sounds good but someone would screw it up | ||
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